From the Legendary UFO Researcher John Lear, over 5 hours of wonderful interview by Project Camelot over 14 years ago- This interview will likely put your brain on overload, so put on your seatbelt and hang on- Audio and Text

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Chapter One

Chapter Two

Chapter Three

Chapter Four


Las Vegas, Nevada
April 2008
ProjectCamelot Website

…now some of you may be asking why so many airlines collapsed that I worked for and why I got fired so many times. My excuse is simple. I am not the brightest crayon in the box, I am extremely lazy, I have a smart mouth and a real poor f**king attitude.
John Lear

Yes, he’s incorrigible and fun loving, with a great sense of humor that has served him well over these many years. Our 2006 interview with John Lear remains one of our favorites.

When we met again with him recently, with considerably more time at our disposal than we had two years ago, John piled his studio table high with books, diagrams and research papers and sat down to tell us “everything he knew”.

With special emphasis on the Bob Lazar saga – as only John can tell it – we cover:

  • the inconsistencies in the 911 theories and why as a world renowned pilot he is uniquely qualified to judge just what kind of planes, if any, hit the World Trade Center (answer, none: John explains why they were holograms)

  • why the moon’s gravity may be as much as 64% that of the Earth’s, and could retain a very thin atmosphere

  • how Ben Rich, the former Director of the Lockheed Skunk Works, was a Mossad agent

  • the location of the “new Area 51”, called Sandia, deep within the Nevada desert

  • what really happened at Above Top Secret, an internet forum where he was attacked and which he has subsequently left

  • … and much more

There’s nothing here about 2012 or ‘Planet X’ – both of which John dismisses – but we think you will be entertained and fascinated by the reported detailed experiences and opinions of someone who deserves to be respected and admired for his courage, character, and maverick commitment to revealing what he believes is the truth.

John Lear Tells All – Part 1
Las Vegas, Nevada

April 2008

John Lear: Absolutely would be probably what they’re going to do.

…They’re going to put a hologram and say, oh, we’re being attacked, you know, by aliens, ah, we’ve made a deal with the ambassador. And he says that they feel that Earth is a threat and that – but if you all take all, any, weapons you have and turn them in, that that they’ll give us a second chance…

J: I would take them and freeze them in a position twenty miles out at 7,000 feet, at 560 mph, put them in the seat, say, you know, and then give them two minutes of looking at the horizons, show them where the World Trade Center is, and ah say, I’m about to release you and when I do, ah, you’ll have a minute and fifty seconds to hit dead center. It’s, it’s impossible. At the height of my career, as proficient as I was in every kind of airplane, there’s no way I could have done that, I mean, it’s just too complex.

J: It’s the same thing with 2012. It’s just going to be a year like every other year. We’re going to have, to continue to have these wars. We will probably have a nuclear war, you know, but things are just, you know, going to go along fine.

Kerry Cassidy: And I even have a hunch that you might have been part of MJ-12, at one point…

J: It was December 6th, of 1988. Bob comes, sits down, and [pauses] he says: “I saw a disk today,” and I’m writing out checks there, you know, and I’m not paying attention and I say “WHAT?” He says “I saw a disk today”, and I, “A disk, theirs or ours?” And he says, “theirs”. I said, “You went to Groom Lake?” And he said “Yeah.” And I said, “What are you doing HERE?” I said. “Obviously they’re going to follow you. Why don’t you just, you know, work there for a while and then come and tell us what happened? And he says, “Because I’ve seen you take so much crap, over the past six months about this. I’m telling you its real, I saw it, I touched it.”

J: I’m looking at him, saying, “What, what, what?” He said, “John, you will never know what it’s like to see your first alien.” I said, “You saw one, you saw one?” “Yup”. I said, “It couldn’t have been a doll? It couldn’t a been…” “No! It was one”.
And, you know, these days you ask him that question he says, “Well, I don’t know, coulda been a doll. They were doing all this weird stuff.” But that night, that’s exactly what he said.

J: You know the deal, the way security like that works, is, when they give you a clearance and when you’re deep inside like that, they tell you: “Look, John, we’ve given you this clearance and, of course, we expect you to keep it secret. But we know every once in a while, you may accidentally mention something at a party. You may have had too much to drink – and you think it would be interesting to talk about this – and we just want you to know that, you know, we don’t really care. We won’t hurt you. But, we will kill your wife, your children, your mom, your dad, your parakeet, your dog…”




Start of interview

Kerry Cassidy: Hi, I’m Kerry Cassidy and this is Project Camelot and we’re very happy to be returning to see John Lear, and do a retake and a new interview, to get…he’s going to tell all, basically. Is that right, John?

John Lear: Yeah.

K: You’re going to absolutely charm us and, and dazzle us with new information.

J: I’m going to tell what I know up to this point.

K: Okay.

J: And I’m not saying it’s absolutely ironclad – what’s really going on – but it’s what I think is going on.

K: Great.

J: But I’d first like to say…I can’t believe it’s been two years since we did this – it seems like only about six months. But first of all, let’s talk about what happened at ATS. What do you know about it?

K: Okay, I know you, you’ve been banned. That’s the extent of it, and we don’t actually know why. What we know about it is that, or what we think we know is that it’s a CIA front and managed by the CIA, so if you’ve been banned, it might be that you’re getting too hot.

J: That’s what I think, and when I first joined ATS, maybe three years ago, I thought, you know what, this is just a collection point for what people think is going on. So that THEY KNOW what the general public thinks is going on and they have a bunch of debunkers there that are, you know, paid to go in there and somebody talks about something and they say “oh, no, no, here’s what really going on.” You know…

K: Right…

J: …so they generally just influence public thought. But then, I started to throw some, you know, interesting stuff in there and they didn’t say anything, so I thought, well maybe it’s ok.

K: [Chuckles]

J: So, starting about four months ago, I started throwing some really secret stuff in there, which I’ll tell you later, and it has to do with Navy submarines. It has to do with what the space shuttles do and then, pretty soon, you know, I’m gone. And the mechanics of exactly why I’m gone is Jeff Ritzmann and David Biedne, were two of the main Meier debunkers. Now, the Meier story is true. There’s no doubt about it.

K: Oh yeah, absolutely.

J: He took pictures, he went on rides. I don’t care whether you say that, you know, “There were pictures of dinosaurs,” or “The lady came out of Sears Magazine.” That’s all contamination. The fact is, it was true. And so, I really don’t have time to support the Meier thing, other than, in the thread, I would come up every once in a while and say, “Hey look, you know, I’m busy with other things. If I had time, you know, I’d tell you exactly how the Meier thing happened and why I believe it, but all I want to tell you is: the Meier case is true and John Lear believes it’s true, and that’s the bottom line there”.

And I’m telling you, I would get hit SO hard on ATS… pages and pages of people knocking me, particularly Jeff Ritzmann and David Biedne. So one day, I got a list of everything, all the insults they made of me, and there were sixteen of them. And I put them, you know, at the end; I said, “You know it’s funny that any other thread, people would be taken to task for insulting another person. But apparently, on the Billy Meier thread it’s okay to insult John Lear.” And I put these sixteen things.

Well that was on a Sunday evening. Monday morning I wake up, go to log on, and here’s Skeptic Overlord… what’s his name, Bill…

Bill Ryan: Bill Irvine?

J: Bill Irvine.

B: Mark Allen is the other one.

J: Says, you know, we’ve post-banned you here until you can prove that what you said that Ritzmann and Biedne posted, was true. We’ve had our best moderators and they can’t find a single quote that was true. So all we need is your help. And I’m thinking, “Holy smokes, I just, you know, got all that, copied all that yesterday”. So, I started to worry, because it never even occurred to me to go back and check to see if it was still there.

K: Wow.

J: I just assumed, if Bill Irvine said it wasn’t there, and his moderators said it wasn’t there, then it wasn’t there. And so, what I thought was one of the moderators was in on it and it’s gone. And the only hope I have of recovering it, is going into the archives.

So that was like about eight in the morning, and the whole day long, here’s Bill Irvine coming back, every two hours, “John, you know, we can’t find any of this. We need your help.” You know, with a few little minor digs in it.

So I’m waiting for Ron Schmidt to get off work at six, so he can show me how to go into the archives. So, finally, just before I went over to Ron Schmidt’s that Monday about five o’clock I said, “You know, I’m just going to take a look and be SURE that it’s not there” and I found every single quote still there. So I laboriously took the time to copy every one, and paste it on this one piece of paper exactly where it was, send it to Bill Irvine, and he sends me back an e-mail says: “Jeff admitted it, it’s a done deal.”

K: So, in other words, the moderators were kind of like in collusion with this guy, Jeff….

J: No, no… it turns out that none of them were colluding.

K: They didn’t know?

J: It turns out that everything was still there. But Irvine said all his guys couldn’t find those quotes.

K: But, but that’s what I’m saying. If they couldn’t find the quotes, then they suddenly found them, then in a certain sense it sounds like they’re working with Jeff.

J: That could be. Anyway, Bill said, “If we all agree to keep this between us.” I said, “No, I don’t agree to keep that between us. I want everyone to know EXACTLY what happened here. You know, you say this is Above Top Secret and we’re trying to get all this information. Why should this little feud, in which you’ve caused me an entire day of grief, and really…”

I told Bill, I said, “I’ve been posting here for two years. I spend eight to sixteen hours answering questions on ATS. And you accuse me of falsifying information? I mean that’s INSANE”. So I wouldn’t agree not to shut up and they, they didn’t let me on so….

K: So it sounds like they’re playing games.

J: Yes. So they had a lot of people ask about John Lear, and finally on Sunday, the following Sunday, they let me on just long enough I could get in my two cents worth and then I was banned forever.

It was obvious that ATS has been a clearing house. They wanted the information that the public got, to see if they could influence that. They weren’t interested in having good stuff come out there…

K: Right.

J: …that the public could say. And I’m telling ya, I was telling some good stuff and I was getting away with it! And it was, really…

K: Well, let’s get that good stuff on here today.

J: …it was really surprising.

K: And we’ll get around that.

J: They were letting me get away with this stuff. And ah, because, you know, I know what’s going on. And so then it rapidly came to a halt. So now we’ve talked to several people at ATS and they said “nobody gets to put anymore good stuff on, you know, it’s got to be backed up a hundred percent or they’re banned and their post is deleted”.

J: I think the crowning blow is when they rolled in Jim Oberg. And Jim Oberg has been NASA’s front man, you know, for thirty years. He knows everything about everything and, when we got into a debate on the neutral point – which I’ll discuss later – which absolutely proves that there’s 64% gravity on the moon. I got Jim Oberg and I’ll read you the exact thing he came back with. You know, he was stuck. There was nothing more for him to say. He was done for and that’s when things started to go downhill, and I’ll read you the exact thing Jim Oberg said.

K: So John, what’s going to be your approach at this point that you’re banned? Because, in a way, that was the kind of a place where you could connect with the public. Are you going to join another…

J: I post on four little forums, and anybody that calls and asks, I give them these forums. And it’s no big deal, there’s like 300 on one and 80 on another. And my bag is not reaching a lot of people; it’s reaching the very few that are interested in what’s going on. And that’s not a threat to the government, really. I don’t think.

K: [Laughs] Okay, well, there are plenty people that visit forums that don’t log on. So, so it’s good news to know that you’re actually still out there and still posting.

J: Yeah, the stuff that we’re going to talk about today is the stuff that’s current on these forums. One is Open Minds; and the other is American Conspiracy; the other is Fantastic Forum; and I think there’s one other.

And then I have a website with Ron Schmidt that’s called and I try and keep all the stuff that we find out on there.

K: Okay.

B: is an excellent website. I want to say this for the record. There are not that many websites that we at Project Camelot would be willing to recommend, but that’s a good one.

J: Okay, let me…

B: A very, very good one.

J: …tell you about the origin of was. When I posted the original HUGE megabyte pictures of the moon on ATS; in other words, I sent them by DVD to… what’s his name there?

B: Bill? Mark?

J: No, the other one, Mark, and he posted them. For the first week people were saying, “Well I don’t see anything, you know, John, and I don’t see what you see there, you know, and everything.” And then this guy called Zorgon started to see the stuff. And so I would lead him to it and I didn’t lead him anywhere, you know. I didn’t say, “Well here it is” – because you can’t do that. You got to let them find it. And Zorgon started coming up with the stuff. And THEN, he started finding more than I did and I said, you know, we got to meet and I’m thinking “Holy shit, this guy lives in New Jersey, you know, and I’m going to have to get back there”. It turns out, you know, he lives a couple miles down the street!

K: Oh my God, that’s great…

J: [Laughing.] So he comes up here, you know, we start trading information. And he already had a website, you know, having to do with medieval stuff, so we just made a part of that. And the information just started to come in from all kinds of sources.

K: Right, yeah.

J: Sources, I had no idea how they got the stuff.

B: Yeah, yeah.

J: But a lot of stuff on the Russian black ships, and it just keeps pouring in…

B: It’s a good site. It’s a good site.

J: 10% of the stuff is posted on there just because we don’t have the time, you know, we’d like to have a secretary, but both of us are broke you know, so we don’t have, you know, we can’t put it ALL on there. So we put the most interesting stuff on there, and Ron works down at the convention center. He’s the guy that sets things up and takes things down. But he comes….

K: Well, that’s fabulous!

J: …he comes home and every once in awhile we get together, you know, like once a week, and talk about what we’re going to focus on but that’s, that’s it.

B: Let me share this e-mail with you, John. This is from somebody called Gary Dix, who used to work very closely with Simon, Mark and Bill. In the early days of ATS and, after a major disagreement, he quit. He’s based in New Zealand. And he sent me a long e-mail.

J: And the date?

B: A couple of years ago.

J: Yeah.

B: And I’ll just read one of the pertinent paragraphs: “As they become more negative over a topic, they begin to drive the threads using sockpuppets, fake member names, as they don’t want to be seen to be guiding directions in the threads as mods and admin. This is the STYLE of mods and admin in the future – using fake accounts to allow them to freely post their ideas.”

We got this on record from a guy on the inside, okay? Now, of course, they’ll deny it. But if you’ve got someone whose user name is “Skeptic Overlord”, what does that tell us?

J: Yeah.

B: You know, I mean, the truth is in plain sight. ATS is a skeptical site. ATS is a debunker’s site and so what do you debunkers do? It’s this phrase, which you know: you keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

J: Yeah.

B: So you’re an enemy of anyone who wants the truth really out. So they bring you in really close with the intention of controlling public opinion about you.

J: Right.

B: It nearly worked, but not quite.

J: [Laughs]

B: Because they made the mistake of calling John Lear a liar. And John Lear may be all kinds of things but John Lear’s not a liar, and everybody knows that, who knows anything about John Lear.

J: But what are the chances of, you know, me posting those pictures on ATS, you know, and the ONE GUY who starts seeing the good stuff, lives, you know, 3 or 4 miles down the road. I mean it’s really, really great.

K: It’s freaky.

J: But that’s how synchronicity works.

K: Absolutely.

J: And, and every DAY, I see an example of synchronicity.

K: Well, that means you’re really plugged in to what’s going on here, and that you’re getting some unseen help, basically. I mean synchronicity is just being in synch with the universe in a major way…

J: Right.

K: …and everything is going in that direction – basically, the direction of disclosure and truth. So, on that note, let’s kind of dive in here. We know you’ve got a lot of stuff to cover today, so where would you like to go first?

J: First we’re going to cover the Nibiru scam, Planet X.

K: Okay.

J: It is not there. It is not going to cause a problem in 2012. It’s a scam. I see it working from every different direction. It’s just a PLOT to keep us, you know, in a state of anxiety. Everything’s going to go along just as normal. The world isn’t going to disintegrate. There’s going to be no planet that comes and shakes everything up. Everything’s going to go along just fine.

K: Ok, are you saying this in general about 2012?

J: Yes.

K: Or are you saying this…

J: Specifically about Planet X….

K: Planet X…

J: …or Nibiru, or whatever you want to call it, AND 2012. 2012 is like…

K: It’s just a year.

J: Is what?

K: Is it just a year, in your opinion?

J: Yeah, it’s just like, what did we call this… Y2K? You know, we all got to get generators and food and everything, and everything was going to collapse. The same thing with 2012. It’s just going to be a year like every other year. We’re going to have, to continue to have these wars. We will probably have a nuclear war, you know, but things are just, you know, going to go along fine. There’s going to be no absolutely…

K: Where do you get your information? Are you just coming to this conclusion in your own head by putting two and two together, or do you have an inside source that’s telling you stuff?

J: No inside scoop. I have never had an inside scoop. Most all of my information, you know, I’ve come out with it myself and its more fun like that. Because people say “Where do you… who told you that gravity on the moon was 64% and there’s an atmosphere”? Well, there’s a lot of books out there but, basically, I’m the guy that came out and said “Yup, there’s gravity on the moon and there’s an atmosphere on the moon”. As far as…

K: Well, why, why should we believe that you would know this? I mean is it because you were a pilot, because you’re trained in a certain way? Where is your trail coming from?

J: Well, as far as the gravity on the moon, we’re going to talk about Bullialdus-Newton law of inverse-square. And we’re going to talk about how usually NASA convinces you, using Newton’s gravitational law, which assumes the mass of the earth and the moon – that’s not what you want to use. You want to use Newton-Bullialdus or Bullialdus-Newton law of inverse-square, because you don’t have to CARE what the mass is. All you need to know is what the distance is, and where the neutral point is. If we know where the neutral point is and the size of the planets, we can figure out what the gravity is.

Now, we know what the neutral point is because:

1) Wernher von Braun told us

2) the crew of Apollo 17 told us

3) one of the other Apollo missions told us

And it’s about 38,000 or 39,000 miles and, if you work out the law of inverse-square, it comes out to be that the moon is 64% gravity of the Earth. That’s all there is to it. And you don’t have to assume mass.

And as far as Planet X and Nibiru, that’s based on 65 years of listening to bullshit, you know, about what’s coming on and what disaster’s coming next. It’s just you know, I know that there’s nothing going to be happening.

K: Okay, let me ask you because we have several witnesses that are giving us evidence…

J: I know you do, I know you do and that’s why…

K: …also some secret evidence in this regard now, were certainly in question about this. We’ve not reached a conclusion ourselves. However, first of all, there’s the South Pole Telescope. There’s also the interest of the Vatican and the Jesuit footage that came out, you know, with [Cristoforo] Barbato. Maybe you’ve seen the footage, maybe you haven’t. Maybe you can give us some background on why you think that footage is not accurate, or not real. And then there’s also the heating of the planets. How do you account for the heating of the planets and the activity on the sun, which is going to reach a peak in 2012 as being meaningless?

J: Are you talking about global warming?

K: But it’s not global, and David Wilcock and Richard Hoagland have gone through planet by planet, and shown you how there’s increased activity all the way down, and there’s actually heating up.

B: There’s information in the public domain that every planet in the solar system is heating up. It seems to be connected with solar cycle 24. And then some people say that there’s something else that’s driving this.

J: I wouldn’t even pay any attention to it.

K: [Laughs]

J: Everybody gets to believe what they want. In 2012 you could look back and say John Lear, on April 2nd 2008 said it was all bullshit, and if it wasn’t, you know, I was wrong, but I think it’s a total scam.

K: I’m sure you’ve rubbed shoulders with the Intel community. You know that your office is bugged – you’ve demonstrated that to us. There’s a reason why they bug you. I mean, first of all, you know, you’re a pilot from way back, you’re incredibly respected, you have a background military, slightly, you know. And I even have a hunch you might have been part of MJ-12 at one point.

J: [Laughs]

K: [Laughs] Okay, so you’ve known all the insiders. You know… tell me why it is that you’re saying you have no inside sources suddenly. I mean, you know, Bob Lazar…

J: Let me correct that. Let me correct that. I had three inside sources. One was Jimmy Doolittle – and he’s the one that told my Mom MJ-12 existed. That story is important because, when I was first getting into all this in 1987, and Shandera and Moore came out with the supposed Eisenhower briefing, and it talked about Majestic 12. I needed to know, is this true? And the only person that I knew that would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt, was Jimmy Doolittle.

K: Okay, who’s Jimmy Doolittle?

J: General Jimmy Doolittle, that’s him behind you taking off to bomb Tokyo. Taking off from the Hornet, incidentally, the same aircraft carrier that picked up Apollo. And that letter that you see is when I had my accidental airplane crash in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1961 and nearly killed myself. He was the only one to take the time to write me a letter and say, “John, we all make mistakes, I’ve made many, plenty of them, but it’s important that we profit, it’s only important that we profit by our mistakes”. And he took the time to write that whole letter so, I have it framed with him taking off on the Hornet to bomb Tokyo.

General Jimmy Doolittle was an incredible General – very respected, and he was involved with MJ-12 up to his ears. He was NOT a part of MJ-12, but he was around our house in Santa Monica, 222 14th Street. He lived down on Third Street with his wife, Josephine, and they were in our house JUST LIKE Vandenberg, just like Twining – all those MJ-12 guys were around our house. But, you know, I didn’t know that at that time and my father never said much about UFOs other than that he believed them.

And I never found out any other stuff until like I got into this stuff in 1985, ‘86 and Doolittle’s name kept coming up, time after time after time. Now, I knew him and I have… there’s autographed pictures all around this den of Jimmy that I’d asked for. And I saw him at various… like SETP, which is Society of Experimental Test Pilots, and to say hello and everything, but I didn’t really know him that well.

But I knew that my Mom knew him and she was as close to Jimmy Doolittle as anybody in her life, Jimmy and Jo. Now, his wife passed away in the 1980s sometime and he was retired, lived in Carmel, California, and I KNEW that. And I also knew that my Mom talked to him every once in a while.

So I knew that the only way I would have of determining whether Majestic 12 was true was to get her to ask him. And it took about six months to get it together, because she’s always hesitant, you know, to do stuff like that. But I finally got her to do it.

And she called up and she said, “Jimmy, how’re you doing and dadadada, and by the way, John’s interested in this stuff, and I just want to know, was Majestic 12 real”? And he said “Yes, Moya, but I can’t say anything about it”. That for me was, you know, the beginning of everything – because, if Majestic 12 is real, it’s a possibility the briefing papers are real and, if they were real, then everything else was real.

K: Right, because why would you put together something like MJ-12 under Truman, to investigate or manage the UFO story unless there was, you know, if there was no UFO story, right? There’s got to be a UFO if you’re going to put together a group.

J: Right. I’d have to say that was my first impression.

K: So now tell me something. You must know the history to some degree. I mean you’ve been around a long time, you’ve seen them in operation. You know, you know, you must have MET some of the insiders and I have to say that I think they would have recruited you. Am I wrong?

J: No, I…

K: You never got an offer?

J: No. I just, you know, I was a pilot. I didn’t know ANYTHING, you know, until 1984 when I, somebody…

K: But you know a lot now.

J: Yeah.

K: Look at this office, it’s incredible.

J: Yeah. You know, up till 1984, my sole interest was SR-71, F-19, Stealth Fighter…

K: Okay.

J: …stuff like that. As a matter of fact, you can go on the internet: John Andrews, who was Vice President of Testors, and eventually made the ‘Sport Model’.

K: Right.

J: You know he and I had letters going back and forth. He’d say, “Hey, you ought to look into this flying saucer deal.” And I’d say, “No, its bullshit, you know I don’t need to waste my time”. That letter’s on the Internet. You know my interest didn’t start till in 1985, I think. We had a… I used to run the reunion for all the Southeast Asia pilots that, you know, that worked for CIA and I’d run the reunion here in Las Vegas, called “China Post 1”.

And we’d have it every two years and ONE of these years, and I think it was 1985, a friend of mine, whose name was Greg Wilson, he was a Raven. The Raven were the Air Force guys they’d take out of the Air Force, sheep dip them, to give them civilian ID. They’d come into Laos and they’d fly, you know, the 01s and they were the Ravens and they’d go out on the PDJ and all around and do all kinds of amazing things. Anyway, he attended the reunion. His name is Greg Wilson and he got talking to him, “Hey, where-all ya been”? And he said, “Well, you know, here and there, still flying A-10s. I spent a tour at Bentwaters”. I said, “Bentwaters”?

K: [Chuckles]

J: “That was the place, supposedly, in 1980, that the flying saucer landed”. He says, “No John, not supposedly – it did”. He said, “I didn’t get to see it because I was confined to quarters, but I know the guys who did”. I said, “What”? I said, “You’re telling me this stuff is real”? He said, “Oh, yeah”.

So here’s a guy that I flew with in Southeast Asia, hadn’t seen for years, I give him this outrageous question about Bentwaters. He says, “Yeah, yeah, I was confined. I didn’t see it, but I know the guys who did”. So that’s what piqued my interest and that’s 1985, you know? So, you know…

K: So, you’ve got more. You’ve got insiders coming to you, you’ve got insiders that are friends.

J: I wouldn’t say he was an insider; an insider like is Bob Lazar…

K: Right.

J: …and the only other insider, the real insider, I mean the guy, and it’s been like, you know, if you guys were here two years ago, that’s probably been like five or six years ago. I can’t remember when I met. Oh, I know when it was, yeah, it’s been a long time ago. It’s been almost twenty years, Used to live up in Idaho. He was retired. He told friends of mine a lot more than he told me, but, just before he died, he came down to Vegas and more or less said, what do you want to know? And I didn’t even know what to ask!

K: And his name is?

J: Ah…

K: Are you at liberty to tell us?

J: No. Because, you know, the deal. The way security like that works is, when they give you a clearance and when you’re deep inside like that, they tell you “Look, John, we’ve given you this clearance and, of course, we expect you to keep it secret. But we know every once in a while, you may accidentally mention something at a party; you may have had too much to drink; and you think it would be interesting to talk about this, and we just want you to know that we don’t really care. We won’t hurt you. But we will kill your wife, your children, your mom, your dad, your parakeet, your dog, you know, everybody else, but you’ll be okay”.

So that’s why people don’t talk. And then people say, “He’s on his deathbed, why wouldn’t he talk”? That’s why. It’s because they make it clear – not him that’s going to get hurt, it’s every person in his family and then starting with his best friend.

Towards the end of his life, I saw him three times. I drove to Idaho to see him twice and once back here and, when I was in Idaho, he didn’t tell me all that much, but he did tell me one interesting thing that NEVER made sense – until THIS year when I find out. The information I’m getting is just growing exponentially. Every time I get someplace, you know, and then I’m led to someplace else and it just… so much information coming in.

Anyway, what he told me was that he worked on a project, a mining machine for the moon, and this thing was being built in the South somewhere. He didn’t tell me where, but I was imagining Arkansas or Alabama, someplace like that.

He said, “John, this thing was so big”, he said, “that when I finished it”, he said, “I have a private license. I rented an airplane just to go up and fly around to see how mammoth this thing was”. And I said, “Well, can you give me an idea”? He says, “Acres”. I said “Wow”! I said, “How’d they get it to the moon”? And, he said “I don’t know”. [laughs]

And that’s how projects like that work. He doesn’t have a need to know how they got it to the moon, his job was to build it, you know, and they’re not going to TELL him any of that. That’s how compartmentalization works. You know, that’s one…

B: We’ve been told by somebody, he told us that Project Lunex and Horizon were never canceled and just went black.

J: Absolutely, and Project Horizon is on our website, right?

B: Yes.

J: Yeah. The only thing we had. There’s, we got four of the phases of Project Horizon, except one. I think its number two that we need. So I’ll show you that, and show you what we’re still looking for.

K: Can you just tell me one thing? Have YOU been threatened?

J: Never, never the slightest bit.

K: Okay, alright. Well, so, either you’ve never crossed the line, you’ve never revealed anything that you weren’t supposed to, or you don’t know enough. Is that right?

B: Or you’re doing someone a favor.

J: OR, somebody’s protecting me.

K: Okay, so the last…

J: But you are exactly right, either I’m talking through my hat and I don’t have the REAL information…

K: Or…

J: …or somebody’s protecting me.

K: Do you know who?

J: Oh, I didn’t say which one was true.

K: I understand.

J: I mean, you know, I think a lot of this stuff is true, but how would I know? I’ve never been to the moon. I’d like to go.

K: Uh huh.

J: If I go and somebody can arrange a ride… like Bob Lazar, he says he’s going to have his space suit on while we’re standing in the air lock there. And when it comes up like that he says, you know, “at least I’m going to have some air and I’ll watch you suffocate”. And I said no, no, I’ll be able to breathe normally. Now, when people go to the moon, it takes them two weeks of decompression before they can actually go out and spend some time there.

The fact is you can go right there and breathe but, you know, you’ll get altitude sickness. Just like if you go to climb Everest, you can go right up there, you’ll probably live but, you know, you’ll hurt pretty bad. That’s why they go to the different camps as they go up, is to get acclimatized and the same thing to the moon. It takes about two weeks.

K: Okay. So tell us how the moon got where it is, because, you know that the moon is a satellite, that’s actually a fake…

J: Right. It was. It’s a spaceship that was towed into orbit. I would say thirty to forty thousand years ago. Now the reason I say thirty to forty thousand years ago, is because it’s still within the history of man.

[Immanuel] Velikovsky talks about the different proselynes and the different civilizations, that talked about the time when there was NO moon and then, when there were two moons and now we have one moon. This guy here, Norm Bergrun wrote the The Ringmakers of Saturn. It’s an EXCELLENT book. Norm Bergrun is VERY qualified; was for forty years a scientific part of both NACA and also Lockheed; retired from Lockheed, I think, about fifteen years ago. No more than that…

K: What’s NACA?

J: Ah, National Aeronautics, the predecessor to NASA.

K: Oh, really.

J: National Advisory Commission for Aeronautics.

K: I see, okay.

J: They were the predecessor to NASA.

K: Okay.

J: But when he retired, he somehow got some photos, some really good negatives of Voyager, which went by Saturn. And he set up a little lab in his house, and he started looking these and he ended up writing Ringmakers of Saturn. And what he shows you here is what he found in the rings of Saturn: three vehicles – space ships – the biggest of which is 31,196 miles long and 2,422 miles in diameter.

We’re talking about a fairly large spaceship there. Now Norm Bergrun, when he wrote this book at the beginning – it’s very good – he says “Now look, I’m going to be talking about some stuff that is very interesting, but you can’t skip a page, you can’t skip a word that you don’t know; you have to go from the beginning to end or you won’t understand what I’m saying.” And I did go from beginning to end. Now since…

K: Okay, but when was this written?

J: Ah, this would be 1986.

K: Ok, so it’s not that old.

J: No and I go see Norm…

K: And it’s talking about a huge spaceship. Who built the spaceship?

J: Who builds them?

K: Yeah.

J: We don’t know who builds them. But anyway…

K: Us?

J: No, no. We couldn’t build anything like that. We have some amazing stuff, but, we couldn’t do that.

K: Okay.

J: No, this is somebody else. But what the interesting part in the book and the reason why we’re getting here is because, at the end of this book, he starts talking about the moon and how the moon was towed into orbit. Because the people that towed, that, that operate that stuff and Saturn and also Iapetus, towed the moon into orbit – and he goes into here, explains exactly why he believes the moon WAS towed into orbit, and how it was and how they grabbed on to the Mare Orienel.

K: Who are you saying towed the moon into…

J: We don’t know. Whoever.

K: …into place. So he doesn’t conjecture on who…

J: No.

K: …you know, on what alien race, for example.

J: No.

K: I mean obviously, it’s an alien race. Henry Deacon, our secret source, has also substantiated that. The moon was towed into orbit… but have you got an idea what alien race was responsible for that?

J: No, absolutely not.

K: None?

J: What’s interesting here, another interesting thing, I see Norm every year because when I go do the UFO Expo West, which is the only one I do. He lives in Los Altos Hills. And he’s writing about Iapetus, and Iapetus is probably a spaceship too.

K: Okay.

K: So we’ve got to get in touch with this guy.

J: You better, because he’s on his way out. I saw him last September, he was not well, he was finishing up the book on Iapetus. But he wasn’t working on it every day…

K: Okay, was he a scientist?

J: Yes.

K: Okay, but did he, who did he work for? I mean, in other words, he’s government…

J: Give me a second here.

K: He’s in NACA, I understand that, but in a certain level, he’s revealing secret information.

J: No. As what?

K: Well, I’m just asking you. Isn’t this, wouldn’t this be secret?

J: No. No.
Thermodynamicist, Douglas Aircraft 1934-44
Aero Research Scientist, NACA/Ames Laboratory 1944-1956
Lockheed Missile and Space Company, Van Uys, Supervisor Flight Test 1956-68
Manager, Flight Test Analysis, 1958-1962
Manager Test Plans and Direction 1962-63
Manager Re-entry Test Operations, 1966…

K: Okay, but…

J: There’s all this stuff, how qualified this guy is…

K: Right.

J: This is…

K: Why are they letting him talk?

J: Why?

K: Why are they letting him do this? I mean, in other words.

J: What’s he saying? There’s a space ship that’s, that’s 31 miles long in the rings of Saturn?

K: So plausible deniability is….

J: Sure, who’s going to believe that?

K: Okay, okay, alright. So that’s…

J: So anyway, two years ago, at the UFO Expo West, I mean, that was SO interesting because number one, one of my lectures of Apollo 1, and the four people that were in it and there was Grissom, White and Chaffey and then there was a fourth guy – and he was part of the secret astronaut corps.

And the REASON that had to keep it secret is because if they, if the public were allowed to know there was a fourth guy in there, then they would not, want to know who he was. And there was no possible way that NASA could ever reveal that there was another guy in there, ‘cause they would have to reveal the secret space program. And the secret space program started in 1959 and they’re the ones who went to the moon in 1962. They went to Mars in 1966. All, everything we know is a cover for the secret space program.

K: Oh, yeah.

J: Anyway, when, when I give a lecture, if I have two hours, I always give an hour, and then let the public talk to me for an hour, because I’m going to learn more from then than they are going to from me. And one of Chaffey’s relatives got up and said, “John, you’re right, we’ve always known this, there was a fourth man, but we didn’t know who it was.” Now, I know who the name is, but I keep it to myself because…

J: Oh, right.

J: …if somebody comes to me, you know and says, “I know who it is”. I know who it is. And it’s really interesting because his son is a current shuttle astronaut.

K: Oh, really.

J: Yeah. So anyway, I go to see Norm two years ago, and in talking with him I said: “By the way, the electromagnetic vehicle that towed the moon into orbit, where is it now”? And he said, “I think it’s on the back side of the moon”.

So when I got hooked up with Ron Schmidt, we started collecting photos on the back side of the moon and we found it. It’s in the crater Tsiolkovsky. And the story of how we did it was so interesting and how NASA covered it up. There’s like six different photos of Tsiolkovsky, as they tried to airbrush this electromagnetic vehicle out if the picture by making it an island.

And ah, but we got them. And we got two really good photos. One was discovered by a lady who works for us in Florida, and she discovered it on a thumbnail of Tsiolkovsky. And what happened, was when NASA was advertising this particular photo, you know, they airbrushed the big one, but, when they had the thumbnail, somebody looked at that and said, “Hey, I’m not going to take the time to enlarge that, take the vehicle out and put it down – nobody’ll notice it anyway.”

But we noticed it, and it’s great, and that’s where we got the photo of the EMV on the far side. And then, Apollo 15 flew over it, and they got some movies of it, and it’s just a quick shot but it’s really interesting.

K: The secret astronaut who was killed, his son is a shuttle astronaut.

J: Right.

K: Okay, and this is interesting because it sort of shows how they bring someone into the fold who might have something to tell the world at a later date.

J: Right.

K: But if he’s a shuttle astronaut, he’s not going to talk.

J: Right.

K: Right, he’s in the fold.

J: Right. Same thing with Grissom’s son.

K: Oh, really.

J: He’s in the program.

K: See this would be an interesting investigative angle, would be, what about all the sons and daughters of the astronauts? Do they all work for the company?

J: Yeah, it would be. Now Gus Grissom – when the fire started, you know, every single story you read will say that there were like three words were spoken. Chaffey said, “Fire!” Somebody said “It’s getting hot in here”, but in every single story, Grissom doesn’t say anything.

Now, as you know, Grissom was the most highly critical and vociferous astronaut in that program. He came out before they were supposed to go up, he said, “There are sixty major things with this wrong – how can we possibly be flying this”? He’s the one that hung the lemon over the Apollo.

And NASA hated him. Now I’ve been told by guys I consider insiders – and there’s another one, call him Number Four – that NASA didn’t specifically kill those guys, but they let it happen. They knew it was going to happen and they just let it happen.

K: But why?

J: Well, there were a number of reasons: 1) They needed more time. They needed to get the program back on schedule and the only way they could do that was to have a horrendous accident. And, they wanted to get rid of Grissom. And so the New York Times – and I forget the guy – broke the story the next day was that he talked to NASA, and they said that the tape was gruesome of the last few minutes. And of course we’ve all heard that Grissom didn’t say anything. We all know what he said. He was saying, you know, “You bastards, you’ve…

K: Oh my God.

J: …YOU’VE KILLED US ALL. I KNEW THIS WAS COMING TO THIS. I HOPE YOU ALL WATCH US DIE.” And just, really bad. So I’m sure that’s what happened and I saw another quote just yesterday and I can’t remember what it was, about how gruesome the tape was.

K: Wow.

B: We’d like to ask you if Clark McClelland has got something to say about this as well.

J: Yeah.

B: We’re in touch with Clark, but we haven’t met him.

J: Clark’s a great guy. I’ve known him since 1990. We’ve never met, but we’ve always talked on the phone. I’ve always tried to get his notes. He has his book ready. He has three books. He doesn’t want to publish one of them – he wants to publish all three. I don’t blame him. He knows a lot of stuff. He knows much more than I’m telling you.

K: Do you think that he’s actually going to get his books published – are they going to let them out there?

J: No way! Not a chance in hell.

K: [Laughs] Okay.

J: The only thing… I’d like to get them, but, you know, Clark is so pissed and I don’t know what happened, but I know he is THE insider, the insider of NASA. There’s nobody in the position that could come out and say more than Clark. I mean, he was there from the beginning.

K: Okay.

B: They’ve done just about everything but kill him, haven’t they? He hasn’t got a penny.

J: Right. And I don’t know why they haven’t killed him.

K: Oh right. Yeah, absolutely.

J: Anyway, one more thing I’m going to tell you about Norm, because we’re going to get into it later. I told Norm the last time, this is last year I went to the UFO Expo and boy, I’ll tell ya, I got some good information. But anyway, I went to see Norm and he’s not well and he’s had several surgeries and I expect to hear any day that he’s passed away. He’s 87, and I said, “Norm, I’m thinking that the airplanes that crashed into the World Trade Center were holograms”. And he said, “John, you’re probably right, and here’s why.”

He said, “Just before I retired I was driving down on the Bay Shore Freeway to Sunnyvale”. and he said, “I had a friend in the right seat of the car”. And he says, “Like, it was about 8 o’clock in the morning, maybe 8:15”. He said, “we’re driving south and we saw this shadow and we looked up, and here…” he says, “It wasn’t a 747, but it was a HUGE four-engined airplane, it wasn’t 200 feet above us”. And he said, “We looked out at, looked at this thing” he said “of course we’re, you know, 20 miles from San Jose, you know, and 30 miles from San Francisco. There’s no possible way an airplane could, you know, legitimately be flying right there”.

K: [Laughs]

J: And he says, “We watched it for about 10 seconds and it went [snaps fingers] just like you turned a light bulb out”. And he said, “So if that was the contemporary hologram, presentation of a hologram” he says, “then you’re right”. And a…

K: Oh, that’s very interesting.

J: …holograph, the holographic technology is so far advanced that people just wouldn’t believe it. But the other day, I had a lady that was helping Marilee on a casting program. Actually, she hired Marilee. She’s from New York. She had two degrees from Harvard. She was just a wonderful, smart, receptive lady, and we were talking about holographs and she says, “Well let me tell you”, she said “About five years ago, I was invited with about fifteen other television executives into a private showing in Hollywood.

And there was a little auditorium, it wasn’t very big. It could seat like, maybe, thirty people and the presentation was called, ‘The Future of Television’ ”. And she said, “I don’t remember whether Steven Spielberg was there but everyone else was”. And she said it was “brightly lit and there was a stage and a podium on the stage and we’re sitting there, and this guy comes out from behind, and he’s a kind of East German accent, East European accent, white hair, has glasses, and he comes out, and he starts telling us the history of television and how they came up with the first cathode ray tube, and how they did this and how they… and he walks down in front of the stage, walks up one of the aisles, he’s polishing his glasses, walks in front in front of them, walks back up to the stage”. And she says, “It was pretty boring”. She says, “After about twenty minutes, he wraps it up with something ‘and that’s the history of television’ ”. And he puts his glasses on and, [snaps finger] just like a light, goes out”.

K: He disappeared? [Laughs] He was a hologram?

J: Yeah, and so…

K: Oh wow.

J: You know, that was seven years ago. So that’s what television is coming to is, you won’t have a screen…

K: Right.

J: You’ll just turn it on and it’ll be happening right there.

K: It’s right there. That’s great, well that makes sense because the Yellow Book…

J: So, the reason I tell you that story…

K: I mean they had the yellow book, right? From, what, the crash in 1947? So, and that’s substantiated by Dan Burisch over and over again. So that’s a, that’s a hologram. You know, technology, right?

J: So, the reason I tell you that is…

K: They back-engineered it.

J: …on ATS, when I first went there, one of the things I talked about was that there were no planes on 911. There were no airplanes at Shanksville…

K: This is really dynamite stuff.

J: There was no airplane at the Pentagon, there was no airplane at the World Trade Center and I’m telling ya, when I started talking about holographs, the dissent, I mean the crush…

K: [Laughs]

J: …of guys that were out to kill me, I mean, it was amazing, there was like twenty guys, “you’re nuts”, you know, “this is absolutely… you’re doing a disservice to the 911 movement”, you know, “to find out the truth” you know. You talk about that and nobody’s going to believe it, but the fact was, it was a holograph and it was CGI and…

K: Right, so can you take us through that? Take us through why you think that’s true. And how you got, I mean, you’re a pilot, you certainly have a vote in whether those planes had the capacity to hit those buildings, because our Henry Deacon has told us some very interesting things also about those planes. Actually, he thinks they were remote controlled. I don’t know if THAT’S true, but basically that planes don’t have the ability to actually steer in to buildings at that level, I mean, I’m not a pilot so I don’t understand the logistics. But, how did you come around to this?

J: Okay, first of all we’re going to talk about… Flight 11 and 77 didn’t exist in the beginning. The Bureau of Transportation Statistics has no record of them taking off, has no, you know, so let’s forget about them because they did not exist.

So now we’re just talking about [Flight] 175 and Flight 93. Flight 93 allegedly crashed in Shanksville. Anybody who has any background in accident investigation or any background at all, can’t possibly believe that an airplane crashed. There was no wreckage. It just simply could not happen.

K: Okay.

J: As far as 175 hitting the South Tower, I just recently put in a call to a Pan American Flight Simulator in Miami to see if I could rent a 767-200, which they have. And what I wanted to do was take six candidates, six candidate pilots. One current and qualified in the 767-200; one maybe qualified, but not current; and then one maybe current in a high speed jet, but not the 767; and then the last three, the same currency as the alleged hijackers, like a couple hours in an Apache, a private license, maybe a commercial, something like that.

And what I would do is in the simulator, you can take them up so that New York is just like it is. I mean the buildings are there. I would take them and freeze them in a position 20 miles out at 7,000 feet, at 560 mph, put them in the seat, say, and then give them two minutes of looking at the horizons, show them where the World Trade Center is, and say, “I’m about to release you and when I do, you’ll have a minute and fifty seconds to hit dead center. Now, the World Trade Center is 220 feet wide, you got to hit to the center. Not left or right, right – to the center.” And explain how it goes, and then I would have one camera pointing at the pilot and one camera pointing at what he’s looking at.

K: Alright.

J: And then say, [snaps fingers] “GO”. And say, “Okay now, show me how easy this is”. You know, ‘cause all the guys on ATS, “Oh, I did that in flight simulator, no problem”, you know. It’s, it’s impossible. At the height of my career, as proficient as I was in every kind of airplane, there’s no way I could have done that. I mean, it’s just too complex.

First of all, the airplane can’t fly above 560 pmh. It can’t fly more than 360, which is its Velocity Max Operating. Maybe could fly, maybe, thirty, forty miles an hour faster than that, but at VMO the clacker comes on. The clacker is an FAA required safety device which clacks LOUD: clack-clack-clack, clack-clack-clack. And it clacks at a rate and a cycle that irritates the pilot, so that he can’t ignore it. He has to slow down, you know. Now, there’s no possibility a hijacker, first time in the airplane, is not only going to, you know, fly it at 390, 400 mph…

K: [Laughs]

J: …but do it with that clacker…

K: Right.

J: …and descend and hit that thing center. Can’t happen. No.

B: I have a question here, if I may.

J: Yeah.

B: We have a credible witness, who says that the planes weren’t piloted, but they were remotely controlled, like unmanned vehicles from thousands of miles away.

K: I just said that.

B: And he said… Yes, but I’m asking John to comment on that, from the point of view of, this also answers the question raised by the fact that no human pilot could have hit that small target.

J: No airplane crashed in the World Trade Center. First of all, remote controlling an airplane that size or any size is very difficult. I don’t believe you could remote control an airplane the size of a 767-200 anyway, particularly to hit dead center of the World Trade Center. But the fact is, there was no wreckage from ANY airplane in the World Trade Center.

And by “no wreckage” I mean, nothing was found of any size anywhere around. Now, there was a panel of a fuselage that you see with five window shades, but when each airplane, American Airlines in the North Tower and United Airlines in the South Tower, hit, it was two-fifths of a second while they disappeared in the airplane. So, in two-fifths of a second you’re not going to have a panel about seven feet long drift down and just be lying there in almost perfect condition, unless it was accompanied by Mohammed Atta’s passport.

K: [Laughs]

J: The only other thing that was found was the engine on Murray Street. And, the engine on Murray Street has been identified as either a CFM-56 – CFM stands for Snecma – OR the CF-6, which was a 767 engine, which was developed out of the CFM-56. But whichever one it was the CF6 or the CFM56, it had to be General Electric and unfortunately, or fortunately, United Airlines used strictly Pratt and Whitney. So that engine you see flying off and that engine they say is from 175, isn’t from 175, because the guys, whose job was to dump it off there you know, and a smoking, smoldering thing, dumped off the wrong engine. There were a lot of things that the perps did that were suspect here. The collapse of building number seven is just absolutely ridiculous.

K: Right.

J: And the reason they had to do it that way is because, I suspect, the holographic projector, that projected flight 175 and flight 11, somehow became disabled – because Flight 93 was the one that was supposed to crash into building seven and when they couldn’t do it, they had to do things quickly. They could fake 93 crashing in Shanksville and I could imagine these guys, all day long, “What are we going to do?”

Nobody’s going to believe this thing just collapsed, you know, from a little fire, and about 5 o’clock, you know, they said well, let’s go ahead and do it, maybe no one will notice. So they collapsed this forty-seven story building into its footprint, and expect everybody to believe it – and of course they did.

K: Okay, so they collapsed it into its footprint… but what did they use? I mean, don’t they have scalar weaponry? Can’t they just hit it?

J: Yes, we do but, that particular thing was collapsed because it had controlled demolition just like the World Trade Center.

K: Right.

J: The World Trade Center, what they did with controlled demolition is the FIRST part was to make what we call the Wily Coyote Cutout in the face, like an airplane crashed in it, which is absolutely, insanely ridiculous – but a lot of people believed it. And then the other thing is they had to controlled demolitions to cut each girder to 30 feet, so it would fit on Rudy Giuliani’s trucks going out of town.

The World Trade Center was collapsed by a direct energy weapon, being operated from one of the outer space weapons platforms, and the reason we know is because of the size of the dust that was left of the concrete. It was approximately 80 microns, and that’s what a direct energy weapon collapses when it’s pointed down. That’s what it uses, it’s called “molecular disassociation”. I mean, it just disassociates the molecular structure of concrete and that’s why all that dust was there. There was just nothing left.

K: Nice one…

J: And that’s why the basement of the World Trade Center was molten for six weeks, is because, when it finally does hit the ground, it heats it up so much. You can pour as much water as you want, it’s not going to cool off for a time. So I believe all of this was controlled by the E-4B, the Doomsday airplane, the 747 that was seen flying over the White House.

I think there is the one that did the holographic projection, and they also transmitted the CGI, computer graphics, to the different TV channels, to show the airplanes allegedly crashing. That’s why we had the accidental nose out on one of the, on one of the buildings. They were the ones that sent the alleged cell phone messages, which never occurred. They did all kinds of stuff. They made probably transponder things for the different ATCs to phone.

K: So you’re saying the hologram had to come out of, had to be done by a plane in the air?

J: Yeah.

K: Really.

J: It was done by a projector. A holographic projector.

K: Oh, yeah. Okay, so, the technology exists out there. Have you, I mean, and I understand that you talked to your friend, who wrote the book…

J: Norm Bergrun.

K: Norm, but where else have you heard about this holographic technology?

J: Ron Blackburn… you know who he is?

K: No.

J: [To Bill] Do you know who he is?

B: No. I don’t.

J: Ron Blackburn was with Lockheed for 30 years. He was with the stealth program, stealth program project up at Groom Lake for 20 years. He was the one that I first heard there was aliens at the test site. Now, when I first met him 10, 15 years ago, he denied knowing everything, now he’s gotten a little bit more lax about what he says. I mean he said up at Groom Lake there was an administration building just for the aliens up there. Ron was at my birthday party here.

K: [Laughs] So we need to get to this guy as well.

J: He’s retired now, he’s retired. He’s very careful about what he says.

K: Okay.

J: He still has a retirement. But he came to my birthday party, and a he told us about holographic projections. He says they contain the sound, light, heat, everything, I mean everything is there. One of the people, one of the problems that people have with holographic projections… Well I saw it, it couldn’t have been. You know, like, they think of holographic projections like you see in Las Vegas or at a birthday party, you know.

K: Right.

J: Where it’s a little dancing light like there.

K: Where you can see through it.

J: Yeah, and they say…

K: And, so you know it’s there.

J: “Well, I saw it, couldn’t be”. You know it’s ridiculous. And then they say, “well, how would they have done the sound, they would have had to have speakers all up and down, you know, the street.” It’s too bad people, you know, they don’t really realize how far we are advanced with our technology. They were fooled, it was a scam. It was a psi-op.

K: Okay, so who ran it?

J: Basically I call them the “Nasty NASA Nazis”, in the middle of the military-industrial complex. Hoagland tells exactly who they are and how they took over, and that’s who ran it. Now, in March 31st, 2007, last year, a guy named Morgan Reynolds, if you’ve heard the name?

K: Yes.

J: Okay… he filed a suit called the Qui Tam Complaint, against these 22 companies. And we’re talking about major companies here. Science Applications, International Corporation, Applied Research, Hughes – all these companies right here are being sued, and what they’re being sued for is accepting money for providing a government agency with fraudulent information.

The government agency they provided with this fraudulent information is NIST – The National Institute of Standards in Technology. NIST was asked by President Bush to determine exactly why the World Trade Center collapsed. What actually caused it to collapse. And they came up with a reason that, you know, the jet fuel and it was just so far ridiculous, that Morgan filed this suit and it’s FORTY PAGES and he outlines everything that they got wrong. And so the suit has been going along in court now.

K: And you testified as to the holographic planes as part of the suit, right?

J: Well what I did is I filed an affidavit on January 28th, 2008, this year, in support of the Complaint and in opposition to the Motion To Dismiss. And basically, what I testified is: 1) why the airplanes couldn’t have traveled as fast as they did and HOW they couldn’t be flown as well as they were, and why there, you know, there was no wreckage in there. And I think this book…

K: It’s amazing that other pilots haven’t come forward because this is…

J: Well, other pilots are employed; they can’t afford to come forward. There’s very few, you know, people, there’s a lot of…

K: But this is our COUNTRY we’re talking about…

J: They can’t do it. A lot of my information was taken from Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators [holds up the booklet] and I explain WHY an airplane cannot fly 500 mph at a thousand feet. It has to do with drag, and it has to do with power and it has to do with the fact that they use turbofans. It just can’t happen. So anyway the government’s and NIST’s contention is that they flew 500 mph – it didn’t happen. It couldn’t happen.

So basically that’s what I explained in my suit. Now, you say why don’t many pilots come forward? Many have, there’s an organization called and I’m a member, one of the earlier members of that, and there’s a lot of people that realize that this couldn’t have possibly happened. There was no, an airplane like a Boeing 757 flying into the Pentagon. No, that didn’t happen.

K: So what happened at the Pentagon?

J: At the Pentagon, a bomb went off to make that hole there and they had a 55 gallon drum of diesel fuel that a guy lit, to make all that black smoke there. And April Gallup who…

K: Yeah, I think the April Gallup story is fascinating.

J: …April Gallup was a…

K: Okay, so let’s, let’s go back where we were, which is…

J: Okay, we’re talking about April Gallup.

K: Right, April, okay.

J: April Gallup was an Army Specialist, and I forget what her job was but, she was – she had a Top Secret clearance. She was sitting about 40 feet from the – where the explosion made the hole in the front of the Pentagon and she had her six-month-old son right below her desk and she thought that was odd because, usually, when she went to work, before going through security, they had to put the little kids in day care, but on that day, security said, “No, take the kid in with you”.

So, she had it – she had the kid right below in his little holder there, and she says it was really strange because as she pressed the ON button for her computer, that’s when the building exploded, and she said a lot of debris came down on her and she saw the hole over there and she thought, “I got to get out of here”. So she picked up her kid, put him over her back, and went towards that opening and she got through that opening onto the grass – which is where, eventually, the triage was set up.

But she said she saw no missile, saw no airplanes, smelled no fuel. There was no airplane in there. And later in the hospital she got interviewed by Army Intelligence and they asked her what she saw, and she started to say “I didn’t see anything” and they said “No, yes you did. You saw a Boeing 757 crash into there”. She says “No, no, no, I didn’t. There was nothing there”. And she’s gone through hell for the last four or five years trying to get medical care.

It’s been a really very, very sad story. But, one of the things I wanted to show this is a page from a military manual talking about stuff that they would like to get in the year 2025. This is called airborne holographic projector, you can see where I got it. You can’t get it any more here, was and I got about 250 pages of this stuff…

K: It’s talking about a hologram machine.

B: It refers to enemy perception management, is that right? That’s such a wonderful euphemism. Have I remembered that right?

J: Yeah, it says… brief description: “The holograph projector plays a three dimensional visual image in a desired location, removed from a display generator. The projector can be used for psychological operations and strategic perception management. It is also useful for optical deception, and cloaking, providing a momentary distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary. And it has capabilities, precision projection of a three dimensional visual images into a selected area. Supports [si-op and strategic deception management and provides deception and cloaking against optical centers.”

K: Okay, and when was that written, do you know?

J: I think in ‘99. I’m not sure. I’ll give you an address where you can get it NOW.

K: Okay.

J: It’s not at THAT address.

K: Right.

J: But I think it’s at Maxwell Air Force Base.

K: We have to believe if that’s out in the public sector, that this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as this technology goes.

J: Absolutely.

B: Strategic Perception Management. Isn’t that just wonderful?

K: It’s great.

B: I just think that’s so great.

K: Alright.

B: An unsophisticated enemy, like the people in the streets of New York.

J: [Laughs] I was going to say that.

B: [Laughing]

J: And I thought, you know what – I don’t think that I’ll say that!

K: [Laughing]

B: Nothing personal against New York.

J: But they have, and when you go into it, they have what they call the hybrid high energy laser system [HELWEPA…High-Energy Laser Weapon Systems Applications]. But when you go in here and get a close up of this system, it’s showing you how they could attack right between Iran and Afghanistan. It’s hilarious, you know, it’s – that’s where they’re going to be attacking and that’s where they knew they were going to be attacking back in, you know, 1999, you know. And that, that was published then so, you can see how far ahead they plan this stuff. I mean they plan it thirty years ahead. I was looking for that page…

K: Okay, when you say they’re going to be attacking between Iran and…

J: Afghanistan. That’s where the pipeline is coming, they want that area.

K: Okay, right, so that’s why we’re going to war with Iran, is what you’re saying.

J: Yeah, we want to clear that area so we can run the pipeline down there.

K: It sounds like you’re saying they’re going to use a special kind of weapon to attack there.

J: Well they could use that hybrid high energy laser, you know, they got plenty of stuff they could use.

K: Right.

J: But it was just odd that, you know, that it would be all ready on PAPER, available to the public to show them where they’re going to be attacking.

K: Okay, this is…

B: What you said to us off-camera, just before we started, was you felt there was going to be, I think you used the words nuclear war.

J: Oh yeah, I have no doubt that we’re going to nuke Iran. I’m sure that’s in the plan and Cheney certainly wants to do it. I don’t know have any inside information, but It looks to me, like, one of the scenario, possible scenarios, would be that Bush gets assassinated in October. Cheney becomes President and then declares Martial Law. And then something happens and where we “have to” attack Iran. Of course, we won’t attack Iran – we’ll get Israel to do it. And, they’ll attack them with their nukes and then we’ll slap them on the wrist by saying we’re going to give you 50 billion dollars for a rehabilitation program here, so that you won’t nuke anybody else. Psychological rehabilitation program. We’ll give them, you know…

K: Okay, but nobody’s going to get away with nuking anyone, I mean, in other words, you’re going to have China, you’re going to have Russia, I mean, basically we’re going to be at World War III at that point, right?

J: Yeah, but it won’t be that big. What they’re going to do is cut the cables, communication cables…

K: Oh, the undersea cable thing.

J: Yeah, so that there’s not a lot of communications, so that they can give…

K: So no one knows what’s really happening.

J: No one really knows what’s happening. It will all be handled on an upper level. All this is handled on an upper level. All this has been planned in communication with, and in agreement with China and Russia. They all know what’s going on. So it’ll be, you know, just to try out new weapons and…

K: Well, actually, this is what, again, our Henry Deacon says. He says China’s in on it. There’s going to be a war with China, but they already know it’s planned.

J: Yeah, of course. And like everybody was ready for the Japanese Yakuza and the Chinese satellite and on ATS they said “they’ll tell us what’s going on, they’ll give us the real picture” and all they did was recycle old NASA pictures, you know. And of course China was very embarrassed. You know they said “these are not recycled NASA pictures”, but you could go right to where, you know, yes, that was an old recycled NASA picture. Now, what they’re doing up there orbiting the moon, if they ARE orbiting the moon, I don’t know. But they’re certainly not taking pictures, you know, that they could use for themselves. [pause]

K: Why not?

J: Because they’re already in on it, they already know what’s there, I mean, you know we mined them…

K: So what’s the modus operandi behind doing all of this? I mean, why are they, why are they going to plan wars – nuclear you’re talking about – nuclear wars where, you know, millions of people are going to die, land is going to become uninhabitable. I mean, you know, this is crazy – even if they wanted to keep a pipeline…

J: That sounds like a good reason.

K: There, what’s the point of making the LAND, I mean, you know…

J: You know, they’ve cleaned up nuclear weapons in the past thirty years, they don’t have that much radiation.

K: Why go nuclear though? I mean it’s so messy. Why would, I mean, you know, I’m not a military guy, but if they’ve got scalar weaponry and they’ve got HAARP, I mean, you know; they’ve got earthquakes they can cause, I mean, there are a lot of other things they can do besides going, I mean, that just seems like the nth degree of insanity. Why would they do it?

J: You know it’s like asking when I talk about Endeavor and the space shuttle being such an outmoded method of getting to the ISS…

K: Right.

J: …and people say “well if we have all this cool stuff that you say like, you know satellites and anti-grav stuff and everything, why do they use the space shuttle?” It’s the same thing with the nuke thing. There’s levels of secrecy, levels of intelligence, you want to keep a certain segment of the people knowing just, you know, thinking that the space shuttle is all we got, you know, and nuclear weapons are “all we got”, so we use those. It’s that type of deal.

K: Okay, so you’re going to kill millions of people, eliminate…

J: I don’t think it’ll be MILLIONS, but it’ll be a few.

K: And what is Iran going to do at that point? You know?

J: Oh, they’ll get all pissed off. I don’t really know what they’ll do.

K: Uh huh. Ok, do you have any inside contacts about THIS?

J: Ahh, let’s see. About Iran, about nuking Iran?

K: Yeah.

J: No.

K: Okay, [long pause] What about 2012 and a hologram of an alien invasion, have you heard this scenario?

J: Absolutely. It would be probably what they’re going to do.

K: [Laughs]

J: They’re going to put a hologram and say “Oh, we’re being attacked by aliens. We’ve made a deal with the ambassador and he says that they feel that Earth is a threat and that; but, if you all take all, any weapons you have and turn them in, that they’ll give us a second chance.

K: So at that point we have one world government because…

J: Yeah.

K: …they could put everybody under the same roof and basically all the countries, your talking not individuals bringing their rifles…

J: Yeah, individuals. Yeah that’s one of the things the aliens want is for all you guys, you know, to turn in your individual weapons so that they don’t feel so much of a threat.

K: But aliens, come on, okay, so this is a scenario…

J: It’s a scenario where the government wants to disarm us and they way is to put a hologram up there of an attack and they say we’ve been in communications with them and…

K: A common enemy and…

J: Right.

K: …it’s a fake enemy.

J: …and you can really help us if you’ll turn in all your weapons. Of course by the time we’ve turned in all weapons, there’s not much we can do, when we find out it’s just a scam – like 911 was. Yeah, that’s a scenario I’m sure that’s going to happen.

Back to Contents

John Lear Tells All – Part 2
Las Vegas, Nevada

April 2008

John Lear: He’s driving home by the time I get to Los Angeles and get my cell phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los Angeles.
So that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on the wrong airplane.




Start of interview

Kerry: [laughing] OK. And with your ideas – and they’re pretty cutting-edge basically – do your friends agree with you?

J: I don’t have any friends. [Kerry laughs, John laughs]

K: Come on, John. I don’t believe you. You’re one of the most charming guys we’ve come across.

J: My good friend Bob Lazar thinks I am nuts. So…

K: Does he really?

J: Yeah. He told us at the birthday party.

K: And he works on UFOs, so …

J: As a matter of fact, if you’ll reach behind you, I would like to read his birthday present to me. It’s that cup that says “JL.”

K: All right.

J: Just hand it over here. [Kerry laughs] Now, Bob Lazar had this made for me and this is my birthday present. Basically, what it is…

K: [laughs, hands cup to John] What does it say?

J: [reading cup and turning it toward camera] … is the Periodic Table of Elements. And the Periodic Table of 116 is “JL.” And it says it’s “a human solid.” And the atomic mass is 256.89. And it has all the stuff there [running finger around image on cup].

And then it says:
* Element: John Lear.
* Occurrence: Found primarily in Nevada. [Kerry laughs]
* Physical properties: JL is a rare and unstable element. It is best known for its remarkable ability to resist common sense and facts. [Kerry laughing]
* Applied liberally, JL has been known to improve the quality of lives. It is also known to absorb great quantities of expensive substances. It is one of the most powerful money-reducing agents known to man.
* Prolonged exposure to this element can cause severe physical, mental, and financial damage.” [laughs; Bill and Kerry laughing off camera]

K: That’s great. [laughing] OK. And you told us off camera that Bob Lazar has gone back in, working for the government.

J: Yeah, he works back at Los Alamos National Laboratories.

K: What’s he working on?

J: Have no idea. One of the things he told us is when he went back to work they had a short chat with him [Kerry, Bill laugh]. And before they gave him his clearance they said: Now Bob, you’re not going to cause us any more problems, are you? And he said No.

K: Well, they basically threatened him to get him to come back in. Isn’t that right? I mean, he was having all kinds of problems right before that.

J: I… didn’t hear that part.

K: OK. But he’s been inside for about four years.

J: I think so.

K: OK. And you’re saying that it’s possible he might give interviews.

J: Yeah. Yeah, he did the Travel Channel a couple years ago. And just the other day he did somebody else, you know. But it would be best that you guys not mention my name. [Kerry laughs]. Just call him up out of the blue, you know.

K: OK. But he’s your friend, right?

J: Yeah. Yeah, he’s a good friend. He came to my birthday party and it was really great.

As I’ve told you… I used to have two wicker chairs here. In 1987 I started talking about UFOs. I gave a lecture at the Spring Valley Library. Well, it created such a ruckus here in Las Vegas! People were calling, there were people wanting to interview me. I mean, it just EXPLODED. And, of course, it disrupted my family here because people were calling. Marilee eventually had my phone shut off. She took all my UFO files. [Kerry laughs] I mean, it was bad.

And so, in 1988, a guy called. He said: My name is Gene Huff. I’m a real estate appraiser and I’d like to get some of your tapes and stuff.
I said: Gene, I’m out of it. You know. It’s almost cost me my family. I’m just not doing it.
He says: OK, well, you know, if you ever want to trade some tapes, I’ll trade you a real estate appraisal for it.
And I said: Oh, wait a minute. Because, you know, I needed some money. I said: I’ll tell you what. I’ll get you those tapes and you appraise my house.

So he came over the day after that to do the measurements. Of course, he had no idea it was 7,700 square feet! He’s complained ever since because he had to do such a huge house for just a couple of tapes and some information.

Well, anyway, when he came over he brought this guy named Bob Lazar, and he introduced him to me. Bob was the guy holding the end of the measuring tape.

And he said: Bob used to work at Los Alamos National Laboratories, and he lives in town now and develops photos.
And so I said Great, you know.
So Gene and I were talking about UFOs and Bob was rolling his eyes. He said: You guys are nuts. This could not be true. I worked at Los Alamos. I had a “Q” clearance. If it’d been true, I woulda known about it, I did enough snooping around there.
So he didn’t want to hear about any of this stuff.

So anyway, that was like in June of ’88. So over the next four or five months, Gene and I and Bob exchanged information. And Bob, you know, he… There was three or four things that pushed him over from “This is totally ridiculous,” to “It might be true.” And one of them was, in those days we knew about a secret facility at Los Alamos called YY-II, and my information was that it was where they held aliens there. And then there was something else. But anyway, Bob found out – Yeah, there WAS YY-II. And yeah, it was WAY more classified than he could get in. And there was like three or four things.

And anyway, in November, that was when Bob decided that: Well, you know, I think I’ll see if I can get a job up at Area 51. So he called Dr. Teller, who he knew from Los Alamos. And I think I was there when Bob talked to him.
And Teller said: Do you want to work out here at Lawrence Livermore with me, or there in Nevada?
And Bob said: I want to work at Groom Lake. [smiles broadly]
And so Teller said: Well OK, let me get back with you.

So then, Bob had three interviews down at EG&G, and he would come up here after each interview. And I remember, after his second interview, the first question was: Do you know John Lear? And: What do you think of John Lear?

And Bob said: Yeah, I know ’im. And I think he sticks his nose into places where it doesn’t belong. And Bob told me: What I DIDN’T tell them was I ALSO like to stick my nose into places where it doesn’t belong. [Kerry laughs].
So he got his third interview and he told us, you know, he aced them, because they talked about really technical stuff. And he just laid it out. And he said: I did a good job.

Anyway, the next thing I know it’s December 6th of 1988.
Bob comes, sits down, and he says: I saw a disk today.
And I’m writing out checks there, you know. I’m not paying attention. I said: What?
He says: I saw a disk today.
And I…: A disk? Theirs or ours?
And he said: Theirs.
I said: You went to Groom Lake?
He said: Yeah.
And I said: What are you doing HERE? [Kerry laughs] I said: Obviously they’re going to follow you. Why didn’t you just, you know, work there for a while and then come and tell us what happened?
He says [Kerry laughing]: Because I’ve seen you take so much crap over the past 6 months about this. I’m telling you it’s real. I saw it, I touched it.

You know. And then we spent about two hours talking about stuff. And it was just totally shocking, and…

K: OK. But tell us that story. I mean, we got it on the other tape. But it’s just so much fun, where he sits down and says: John, you’ll never know what it’s like …

J: That was January. And he’d been up there two or three times, or four or five. I don’t know how many. And I remember it was January, because it was bitter cold and I had a short-sleeved shirt on like this [rubs his bare arm].

And Bob comes in and sits there and, you know, he’s just ON. He’s LIT. And he wants to talk about something. And we already knew we shouldn’t talk in here. So we went out by the pool.

And Marilee’s coming this way and she says: What are you two doing? You know? [laughs]
We’re going out to talk. You know. And she’s suspicious of ANYTHING anyway, and so she doesn’t believe that for a second. But she lets us go.

So we went out in the little back place by the stable. And I’m looking at him, saying: WHAT? What? What?
And he said: John, you will never know what it’s like to see your first alien.
I said [excited]: You SAW one? You saw one?
He said: Yeah.
I said: It couldn’t’ve been a doll? It couldn’t have been…
[He said]: No. It WAS one. [Kerry laughing].

And, you know, these days, you ask him that question, he says: “Well, I don’t know. Coulda been a doll. They were doing all these weird stuff.”

K: Oh, yeah.

J: But THAT night, that’s EXACTLY what he said.

K: OK.

J: And I said: How’d it happen?
He says: Well, I was walking down the corridor. He said: I got a guard on each side. And, he said, I walked by this door and there is like a 12-inch windowpane [gestures to indicate size of window]; it has wires through it. And I looked through it and there’s two guys in lab coats facing me. And an alien standing up talking to them.

Now, did I show you that picture?

K: I don’t think so.

J: ‘Cause he drew it for me.

K: Oh really!

J: Do you want me to get it?

K: Yeah. Absolutely.

J: [indicating papers on desk] These are a lot of stuff I kept from Bob. [shows diagram] For instance, here’s how security clearance works. The lowest clearance you can get is Top Secret. And then above that, there’s 28 levels of Top Secret Crypto. And then above that, there’s 10 levels. Now, these aren’t the real names, except the top one is Majestic.

Now, each one of these are compartmentalized. So that you may have Top Secret Crypto 25, but you don’t get to know ALL that information. All you get to know is what you’re cleared for. In other words, when you get Top Secret Crypto 25, somebody doesn’t come and tell you: This is ALL the stuff that the guys in the Top Secret Crypto 25 get to know. It’s compartmentalized.

So we had this to show that the President of the United States is, like, Top Secret Crypto 17. He doesn’t need to know very much. He’s a figurehead. He’s told what to do.

K: Right.

J: So he doesn’t really need to know all this. To my understanding, the last President that was given any kind of a briefing was President Nixon. Ford knew a little bit. Reagan knew a little bit. Of course, Bush knew something because he was, you know, Director of the CIA. That doesn’t mean they tell the Director of the CIA anything. He’s an appointed office and they HATE appointees, so he knew that for other reasons. But anyway this is how that chart worked.

[Picks up a cassette tape] These are the… When Bob decided NOT to go back to work for the government, we took him into three regressive hypnosis sessions. And they were with Lane Keck. And Lane was supposed to be at my birthday party and I don’t remember why he didn’t come. Or maybe he did come. I think he did come. We’ll see on that DVD.

But he did the regressions for Bob. And what we tried… It was EXTREMELY interesting. The first one we didn’t get, because the tape recorder broke, and Gene Huff has those on notes. But the SECOND one – I have the second one – and that’s where we tried to pull the information out. And I’ll tell you what here. Later, if you want… I have a transcript of the second one, and I’ll let you read it. Because it’s extremely interesting.

K: That would be great.

J: [shows a sketch on paper] This is when Bob was telling me how you went forward and backward in time.

K: OK. I was going to ask you that. So Bob worked on time travel, didn’t he?

J: He didn’t work on it. He was briefed on it. See, when he went up there…

K: If he knew Teller, he must’ve… And he worked at Los Alamos.

J: He only knew Teller because he met him that day in front of Los Alamos when Teller was giving his speech and Bob was on the cover of the Los Alamos Monitor with his jet-car. And he walked up to Dr. Teller and said: I’m the guy you’re reading about. And the doctor said: Oh, really neat. And they had a little chat. But that’s the only place he knew him from. He didn’t work WITH him. But he did work at Los Alamos and he did listen to Teller talk.

K: OK. I see.

J: So Bob, when he went up to S-4, they said: You have to choose what you want to do. You can’t have a little bit of it all. You have to choose. You know, do you want to work on this or that. And Bob wanted to work on reverse engineering the propulsion. That was his job. But he got briefed on all this. And what he’s showing me here [close-up of drawing] is how you go forward in time – which is just exerting a strong gravitational pull. And how you go aft. And he started drawing it like that, and then he put in a scribble. So anyway, these were the…

[Holds up next paper] Bob Lazar 1987. He was drawing me the different shapes of vehicles that were at S-4. And this one [pointing], what he’s doing here is he’s showing me one that had been hit by a projectile.

[going through papers] And when I first started showing Bob the pictures of the Moon, and showing him stuff that was on there [looking through papers]… You know, I would say: Look at this. Look at that, you know, vapor, and this… and that. And he kind of looked at me real skeptical.

I was walking out the door of his home, and he says: You know, John, if any of this stuff is true, I’m going to have to kill myself. [Kerry laughs]
And so I said: You know, why don’t I get that on paper, Bob?
So [close-up of paper] I had him sign this to me. It says: I, Bob Lazar, promise to kill myself is any of John’s Moon stuff is true. Signed Bob Lazar, August 23rd, 1996. [Kerry laughs]

Well, what happened is, when I finally got somebody, you know… when I ordered that photograph from NASA? You know, they sent me the negative. You know? It was a 16 x 20 negative.

K: Right.

J: And it took me, you know, five or six years before the technology got… even to Las Vegas, to make a positive of that size negative. So when I got it, I took it over to Bob’s house and… [camera zooming in on photo] There’s a little one right here. This is the first I got and I took it over to Bob and he scanned it. And those are the scans that went on ATS. And so up here [pointing to photo] – I’ll let you do a close-up later – there’s obviously what looks like a parking garage.

So, Bob looks at it and looks at it and looks at it. And he says: Yeah. He says: I’ve got to admit. That is not natural. That is something.
And so I said: You know, Bob, we’ve been friends for a long time, and I know you are a man of your honor. And you have agreed that if any of my Moon stuff was true, that you would kill yourself. [Kerry laughs].
And he says: Well, is there any way I can get out of it?
And I said: Yeah. Yeah, as a matter of fact, why don’t you just sign this statement here? [Kerry laughs]
And [showing paper] this is August 5th, 1998. This is two years later. It says: I, Bob Lazar, in return for not having to honor my commitment to kill myself if any of John’s Moon stuff was true, do freely admit that the object in the crater Copernicus on the Moon, saved as “apple crate,” is a box, which I don’t know what it’s doing there. Signed, Bob Lazar.
Now that’s the best I could get him to do.

[close-up of Moon photo] But that is the infamous parking garage on ATS that I show everybody. And people say: No, I don’t see a parking garage. But, I’ll show you the enlargements later. But anyway…

These are some more. [close-up of drawing] This is the original drawing he did on how the anti-matter reactor worked. And this is how he showed me the arches were in the…

K: And that was what year?

J: This is all between December of 1988 and March of 1989.

[shows paper] And these are the notes I kept: Meeting with Bob Lazar, November 2nd, 1988, because I typed up this stuff.

K: I see. Now, did he draw an alien for you or not?

J: Yeah.

K: You got it there? Because we’d love to see that. [John looking through papers]

J: I realize that we went to get this. [Pulls paper out of stack] Now, the original is blue and I’m sure it’s here somewhere. But this is the original drawing he made me. [close-up of sketch]: “Drawn by Bob Lazar, January 1988. This scene is at S-4. Position of gray in relation to two scientists in lab coats. Size, orientation and construction of window” through which he saw scientists and a Gray.

So this is… We were sitting… He was scribbling all over. [Rotates paper] This is the test site and where S-4 was. [pointing] This was the length of the hangars, 360 feet and each bay was 40 feet long. [Rotates paper again] This was how the saucer sat in the hangar. And this drawing right here is the two… And this is what Bob drew. [pointing] These are the two lab technicians. And that’s the little alien facing the other way. He drew the door and he drew that wire going through the window. He said he looked through that and saw those guys right there.

K: That’s great. Did he ever have any exposure, like communication with them?

J: Yeah. Three times. At least three times.

K: Really?

J: I’ll just show this [holding another paper] because this is on the back side of the piece of paper. This is Aurora. And this is the airplane we have the cruises at 250,000 feet and goes Mach 12. And that was in 1988. And this is what it looked like when he stepped down from the Boeing 737… When he walked down the ramp this way, that thing was parked towards him, so he was looking up the tail. And he said it was absolutely enormous. He said there was two giant squares where the exhaust was. And he said a man would look like a little doll, you know, standing in those.

K: Wow.

Bill Ryan [off camera]: He’s looking at it from behind?

J: He’s looking at it from behind. Yeah.

K: Yeah.

J: So he doesn’t know exactly. He just assumed that that’s what it looked like in plan view.

So anyway, the three times that he saw the alien was… The first time was when they gave him the pine-smelling fluid. And what they did… It’s really interesting. When Bob came in here the very first day and he said, I saw a disk, I said… And he used to wear a ring. And I forget which finger it was on.
I said: OK, now listen to me, Bob. They’re going to… they’re going to give you some drugs to make you forget what you’re doing. So what I want you to do is, when they take you in to give you the drugs, I want you to take your ring of – subtly – and put it on your other hand. You won’t remember, but when you come up to see me, I’ll see it and you’ll know you’ve already taken the drug.
He said: They already did that today.

K: Oh wow.

J: I said: They did?

And he described this elaborate drug test of, you know, how they took a needle and they put a rectangle on his – scratched a rectangle on his arm – and then made lines like this [gestures criss-crossing lines on his arm] and lines like that. And then they’d take stuff and put into each little square like that.

And then they took him into a room. And he said the room was just like a regular doctor’s office and a couch, and he lay on the couch. And he said there was a screen blocking something, and he said he knew the alien, the Gray, was behind it. And there was a military guy with an M-16 and a doctor and a nurse.

And they had him drink the pine-smelling fluid. And he drank the cup. And immediately he felt, you know, dizzy. And he described exactly what he felt like. He said he felt like he was in a well that was 100 feet deep, that his arms were 100 feet long, and he was just holding on to the sides of the well, just barely with his fingertips. That’s what he felt like.

He said then they started to read the clearance, the briefing of the clearance, which he was being given. So they’d say, you know, they’d read a sentence. And he’d say: And I understand that, you know, I am being briefed. And at the end, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke it into his stomach like that [makes gesture of being hit in stomach]. And he said it REALLY hurt. And at each different phase of the clearance, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke it into his solar plexus.

And so, in the tapes that Lane Keck did, when we were trying to get the information out, you know… They told him a lot of really interesting stuff, and when we would get to, you know, what’s going to happen in the future, you know, he’d say: I’m not supposed to talk about that. And then Lane would try to work around it with some subtlety. And Bob would say: No I can’t. It hurts.

K: Oh my. Wow. Like a programming thing.

J: Right.

K: So, did he ever do the ring? The ring trick?

J: No, because he had already done it. He said they had already drugged him.

K: But he had to keep going to work, so …

J: See, the reason he quit was because when we got caught… You know, he’d invite us up to see the flying saucer flights. On March 21st, 1989 – and I have that tape right here and I’ll show you; it’s only 9 minutes long – we took that Celestron 8 [points to telescope] and we saw… You know, he told us when it was going to fly. And me and Gene are right there. And I focused in on it and I saw a flying saucer, you know? And it was, you know, tilted about 40 degrees, and it was gold, and it had this stuff radiating off it.

And I said: Quick, Gene, quick! Take a look! And as I stepped back, I hooked my foot around the thing. So, that came up at the birthday party, because everybody at the birthday party was supposed to tell a John Lear story. [Kerry laughs] And that was Bob’s story.

K: OK, well, also the story about getting stopped on the road, and the gun, and the car, and the cop…

J: Right. That was when the County Sheriff stopped us. And that was the third time we got caught.

But the point of that story was that when they took him in the next morning to Indian Springs – which is the center of the all the security – and took him out of the car with a gun in his ear, they said: Now Bob, when we gave you this clearance it meant you were not supposed to tell a-l-l-l your friends about the flying saucers. Now, do you want to work here or not?

And that’s when Bob was non-committal, because the last two flights he had taken up to Groom Lake, he could remember walking up the steps and walking down, but he couldn’t remember anything in between. And he said he didn’t want to work on a program like that.

K: Well, what about the Tall Whites? Because, from what I understand, Charles Hall talks about the Tall Whites being out at Indian Wells, that area? Do you know anything about that?

J: No.

K: Bob ever talk about the Tall Whites?

J: Uh-uh. No. Only the Grays, and he only had the three times. The once was with the pine-smelling fluid. And the once was seeing them in the room. And then once when George Knapp hired Tavernetti to come up and do the lie-detector test.

George rented a room at Caesar’s Palace and Bob and Gene Huff got there early and they knew the room. And so they pull the door open. Gene pulled the door open. Bob looked inside and he turned white and nearly fainted, and he walked over and sat down in a chair. And Gene says: What in the heck is the matter with you? And Bob said: I just had a flash-back. He said: I remember talking with the Gray.

And what had happened is, when they opened the door, the way that Tavernetti had set up… There wasn’t very much light. It was one single table, with a chair on one side and a chair on the other side, and some equipment there. It triggered this reaction of Bob when he was reading the briefings and the Gray was across from him.

And it was such an over-whelming experience of when you first, you know, are in the presence of a Gray, when, you know, you’re used to asking a question [gestures words coming out of mouth], and then having somebody respond. But when you’re talking to an alien, they pick it up from your mind, and they’re answering before you can even get out of your mouth… and it gets confusing. And it was just an almost overwhelming experience. So, that was the other time that Bob had the…

K: Now, do you think he’ll go on camera with this stuff?

J: I doubt it. But, you know, you never know what he’s going to do. Never know what he’s going to do. [Kerry laughs]

[John begins going through papers] So let me look through here. [Holds page up] This is the page where we were trying to think of the guy he worked with – Castroloni [sp?]. But I think we finally determined what the guy’s name was. And George Knapp has it, but I don’t know what…

K: So is George Knapp working for the Agency?

J: No. George Knapp works for Channel 8. Oh, you mean under cover?

K: Yeah.

J: You know, I don’t know. George knows a lot of stuff. And he had me on a couple months ago. And what he was doing was a story on Sandia. Sandia’s the most secret – not the most secret – it’s THE secret base here that replaced Groom Lake Area 51. And it’s out on the Paiute Mesa… and I’ve got a map of it here.

They started building it in 1980 and finished it in 1987, so it’s now 20 years old. About, you know, four or five thousand people work out there. I mean, it’s a HUGE underground base, absolutely enormous. I mean, there’s great big cylinders of offices and stuff that go, you know, a mile deep. And then out on the test site, there’s a couple of runways with all new hangars there and everything. It’s just a MASSIVE operation.

So when George went up there to film it, he couldn’t find it. But anyway I’ll show you… As a matter of fact I have it here on DVD. I’ll show you the exact thing that we did.

I told him that one of the interesting things was… How do we get the people out there? They can’t DRIVE out there because it’s too far, can’t have that many people on Highway 95 because we’ll be exposing that stuff. We can’t put them on 737s because they’re already full now, you know, and we can’t put on more airplanes going out there.

So what they did is, they built a high-speed train that goes from Sandia down to Vegas. And what they did is they put the stops under two of the major hotels. [laughs] So the guys just look like gamblers or, you know, hotel guests walking in there. And they go in there, they open a door, use a card key, and go down, you know, to the thing.

K: Oh… OK [laughs]

J: I mean, it’s great how they do that.

K: Which hotels? Do you know?

J: Yeah, but I’m not going to say.

K: [laughing] OK. That’s great. Have you ever taken the train?

J: [laughing] Nah.

K: You know where it is, you know …

J: I’ve been meaning to go down there, you know. But I try to stay out of trouble! [picks up magazine] Here’s the Los Alamos Monitor that Dr. Teller was reading when Bob was… [shows photo of Bob with jet-car]

K: OK. Yeah. Great stuff.

J: Yeah, I’ve a friend, Jim Goodall, and he said: I’m coming down there. We’re going to go up to the test site.
And I said: You know, I used to do that stuff, but I’m still alive, so, you know, if it’s all the same to you, I don’t want to do it.

[shows another paper] Here’s three things that I wrote down that were important. I came up with the speed of time. And Bob said… You know, I told him what it was. And he said: That’s correct. But he said: Who cares?

[pointing to list] And what I said was: The speed of time is directly proportional to the amplitude of the gravitational flux. In other words, the speed of time is dependent on gravity.

Then Bob told me: [pointing to items on list]
* It’s theorized that there is one black hole for every galaxy.
* It’s theorized that every black hole has its OWN galaxy.
* HIV – the protein coat is on the virus itself. And
* The recycle time of the gravity amplifier is 10 milliseconds.

Now, the HIV – have we talked about HIV?

K: No, but we can definitely go there.

J: AIDS was invented by a Navy surgeon named R. M. Donner. And when Bob read the briefing up at S-4, one of the things that impressed him is that in the paper… All the briefings he read were, you know, 50 to 100 pages, with a blue cover. And they were scattered on this table. And he could take each one. And what it was, was that as he progressed his clearance, these briefings – [lifts top portion of a stack of papers] – Say this is one briefing. It would be stapled here. And as his clearance progressed, you know, they would unstaple a few more pages.

But anyway, on the briefing of AIDS… and I have it; it’s probably in here, because I wrote a whole thing on what he told us. It was developed, you know, to get rid of a certain segment of… number of humans.

But it was developed by R. M. Donner. And it has the exact cure for AIDS. And it has to do with the cucumber Trichosanthes kirilowii, which is only grown in China. We tried to get it out of China, on three attempts. But – however they know, somebody knows – and each one had been cooked, either by a microwave or something as it passed through customs. So it’s impossible to get it out. But I’ll read you the exact cure and how it works.

K: Well, we have a contact right now who says he worked on that – on engineering the AIDS virus – in Africa.

J: Possible. But it wasn’t in Africa. It was here. It was released in Africa. But it was built up at S-4.

So Bob and I looked for R. M. Donner. We found him. He lived in Santa Fe. He was retired. And we went to see him several times, because Bob then had the contract for the repairing the Alpha probes.

And what we used to do is, we used to DRIVE to Los Alamos from here. It was a 16-hour drive. And Bob had a friend there. And it used to take us like 24 hours to rebuild all these Alpha probes. There was like 300 of them. And we’d clean them all up and then rewire them and then put the aluminum tape on them. And then we’d drive back to Las Vegas.

K: What’s an Alpha probe?

J: They scan for radiation on the people that go in and work at Los Alamos.

K: OK.

J: Bob had the contract. So we did that about every 6 weeks. So what we’d do is, we’d try to… We knew where Donner worked, and we’d go there; we missed him every time. And then we finally got his home address and we went to his home. And we could never catch him home. Now whether he was not answering the door, or whether he was not really there, or whether we didn’t really have an address – I think we did – we never met up with him.

Now, when Bob started to make some money on the photo business and the Alpha probes, we actually went on the airline to go to Albuquerque, and we’d rent a car to go up to Los Alamos. So this one day – and the same things happened on this one day. And I told this in the John Lear stories. I’m going to tell this on myself.

I have trouble recognizing Earth people. For some reason, I just can’t, you know, if I haven’t known them for 25 years – and even if I DO know them for 25 years – it’s hard for me to pick them out of a crowd.

So what we would do is, to go to Albuquerque, Bob would buy a ticket on Southwest and I’d jump-seat with my airline ID. So one morning we get ready to go. We’re leaving at 7 o’clock. And I go to the airport, and I don’t want to get on the airplane unless he’s on it. And I walked up and down all the passengers and looked very carefully. I couldn’t find Bob! So I didn’t want to get on if he wasn’t there. And I couldn’t reach him at home.

So when everybody got on, I asked the flight attendant, I said: Hey, I’m the jump-seat, but I want to be sure a friend of mine… Could you announce, ask Bob Lazar to ring his call button? Well of course what I’d forgotten is, on this particular flight going to Albuquerque, that’s all the Sandia and other guys that go on this flight. So when the flight attendant went: Would Bob Lazar please ring his call button? – of course the whole airplane, everybody starts laughing, ‘cause they think it’s a joke! [laughing]

K: [laughing] That’s great!

J: So anyway, he rang his call button, I realized he was there, so I got on the jump-seat and went to Albuquerque. We rented a car, drove up to Los Alamos. And for some reason, this day, everything went perfect. I mean we just slid through that thing in about 8 hours. And so we realized that we could drive back, get on the airplane, and have dinner at our favorite Italian restaurant called Parma’s. So we pack all this stuff up and write the P.O. and we go tearing down the mountain from Los Alamos to Albuquerque and down the freeway.

We screech into the rent-a-car place, jump right on the van that’s just pulling out, get to the airport. Bob runs up, you know, and gives his ticket. I run up, and sign my, you know, my jump-seat. Run in. They close the door. I sit down. And I heard the captain say: Welcome to Southwest Airlines 304 on our flight today to Los Angeles. And I realized that I had run down the wrong gangway and got on the wrong airplane. [Kerry laughing]

So meanwhile, Bob is on the airplane waiting for me and he sees them shut the door. And he can’t figure out where I went. So all the way to Las Vegas, you know, he says: Well maybe he got into the cockpit and I didn’t see ‘im. So they get to Las Vegas. (And, you know, it takes much longer to get to Los Angeles, so I couldn’t call him.) And he gets to Las Vegas and he goes up into the cockpit and I’m not there. And he cannot understand how we could have been so close and I didn’t get on the airplane.

So he’s driving home about the time I get to Los Angeles and get my cell phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where in the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los Angeles.
So, that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on the wrong airplane. [Kerry and John laughing]

The information that Bob got up at S-4 was [reading from a paper]:
AIDS was a virus that is protected by the protein coat on the RNA preventing the antibodies, the T-4 cells, of the immune system from detecting and eliminating it. The alleged cure for AIDS lies in the excrement of the white fungus that’s grown from the Chinese cucumber Trichosanthes kirilowii.

This excrement, which develops after about two or three weeks, is separated with hydrazine sulphate in an acidification process which dissolves the protein coat on the RNA and exposes the nucleus of the virus that’s detected by the antibodies in the immune system.

Regardless of how weak the immune system is, the virus will be destroyed. No more than 20cc dose per 36-hour period should be administered. No antibiotics should be used during this period. The 20ccs are metabolized in 36 hours, having dissolved the protein coat on the virus.

And I mention here that over the last 20 years I have been party to several attempts to get samples of the Trichosanthes kirilowii out of China, but all have met with failure, the last samples having been cooked during departure procedures.

Now, the “October Surprise.” In 1980, when Reagan and Bush were running against Carter and Mondale, as you know, the hostages were still in Iran, in Teheran. And then Bush took an airplane to Paris to meet – not with Khomeini, but with a representative of Khomeini. And the deal was, if the Khomeini would delay the release of the hostages until Reagan’s inauguration, that the Reagan-Bush administration would supply him – the Iranian regime – unlimited guns and ammunition throughout their administration, which would go from 1980 to 1988.

My part in that was to deliver those guns and ammunition from Tel Aviv to Teheran. The reason I brought this up is that big sheaf of papers over there is the details of who was flying and how they pulled the whole thing off.

The way they pulled if off is, Bush left Saturday night on a BAC 111 jet which only takes about 6 or 7 hours to get there. He only spent about 4 or 5 hours in the meeting. And then he was flown back in an SR71 from a base in France to McGuire Air Force Base. And it only took an hour and 14 minutes. That way, he was able to show up for a tennis appointment that he had on Sunday, and that the press would have not known of the lapse in time or the trip.

And as it turned out, they were elected and they supplied these guns and ammunition. And that was, you know, part of the “Iran Contra,” but Congress never went back farther than 1985 to find out when it originally started.

And when I moved to Egypt in 1981, that was going to be my job, was to take those arms and ammunition from Tel Aviv to Teheran. They were coming into Tel Aviv from Zaragosa, our Air Force base in Spain. And Mossad was handling the whole thing.

I never did fly a flight. And the reason was, the first airplane in was an Argentinean CL44. And what they wanted to do was use an old turboprop airplane to be sure everything went fine and there were going to be no problems.

And for some reason it got shot down on its way out. And it got shot down over Russia, about 40 miles south of Yerevan, which was well inside Russia. And the Mossad couldn’t figure out how the pilots got off course. They were on their way out. They had dropped the load, you know, already dumped the arms and ammunition off.

And they finally figured out that what must have happened is the pilots were intercepted by the Russian MIGs who knew what was going on and didn’t like it. And the pilots thought: Well, you know, might as well follow them because we’ve got nothing on board, they can’t prove anything. And then as soon as they got them over Russia, just shot their ass down, which was a message to Mossad: Hey, we don’t want this to go on.

So that big sheaf of papers was the history behind the “October Surprise.” There were two books. Gary Sick and Barbara Honegger each wrote books about it. Congress went as far as to actually launch an official investigation in 1990, but it was all covered up because, you know, nobody wanted to go back that far or hear any more stories about that thing. But the hostages did spend – let’s see – October, November, December – an extra four months there.

K: So Reagan could be elected.

J: Right.

K: Incredible stuff.

J: A lot of people know this story. Well, it’s been, what? 30 years? And pretty much everybody has forgotten it. The only reason I brought it up is because I’m putting that history there, who the pilots were …

K: Do you know anything about the Minot… the recent incident with the Air Force Base and the weapons that were… the nuclear warheads that were…

J: That smells to high heaven. I found that on ATS. It was very, very thorough. It was one of my favorite threads. It went on forever. And we had some guys at ATS that really knew what they were talking about. And that was EXTREMELY interesting. It had to be Cheney. It couldn’t have been anybody else that authorized it. And it was one of the most double-dealing instances I’ve ever seen.

K: What would you say it was a set-up for, though? Why’d they do it?

J: You know, that’s the question. Why did they? They have nuclear weapons already in Europe. Why’d they need to steal them, you know?

K: Right. And why’d they need to fly them from North Dakota or wherever it was, South Dakota, across the United States? I mean, what was the point?

J: It’s crazy. There IS no point. Well, there is a point, but I don’t know what it is. But that episode is extremely interesting. I’d sure… You know, one day we’ll find out and, you know, we’ll say: Ohhh, that’s what it was all about. I don’t know, but that was really… It’s My’-not.

K: Yeah. Meh-no’, North Dakota.

J: That’s the French pronunciation. We Americans call it My’-not. [laughing] I’m kidding you.

K: I see. OK. So where are going next, John? What do you have?

J: I don’t know. While we’re thinking about where we’re going next [picks up a book] I just ordered this book. Somebody, it just accidentally came up there. It’s called The Gravitational Force of the Sun by Pari Spolter. It was written in 1993. And basically what it says here… [reading]: This book is a serious challenge to Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation as presently formulated.

And I’m just, you know, this far [shows small number of pages] in it. And basically why that interests me is because Newton DID have some ideas about the Moon, along with, you know, throughout history, about 36 other people who thought there was gravity on the Moon, there was atmosphere, and there was people up there. But each one, you know… The information got gently suppressed.

K: Well, we have bases up there. That’s really what …

J: NO question about that. We have bases on Mars. You know, the Secret Astronaut Corps has visited every planet, or most of the planets.

K: Every planet?

J: And much farther than that. We’ve been to other solar systems. People, when we talk about other planets, say: Well, it’s too hot on Venus. No. That’s bullshit.

The sun is an electromagnetic sphere. It’s not a nuclear reactor. And it doesn’t radiate heat as such. It radiates electromagnetism and each planet has its own filtering system. And so the filtering system around each planet determines what the temperature is. So temperature on Venus is much like Earth. So it is on Mars. So it is on Pluto. The same on Mercury. There are people just like us on every single one of the planets.

The planets that you hear about as being gas giants, like Saturn and Neptune… There’s only ONE gas giant in our solar system, and that’s NASA. [Kerry laughs] That’s the only gas giant we have. All the rest of the planets, people live on and …

K: So what do you think? They’re being shrouded? You think there’s…

J: We’re being suppressed. The information is being suppressed. We’re not allowed to know about any of that. The people that Hoagland talks about have taken over. And they consider space personally theirs. And they don’t want to share it with any of us. They have technology that we wouldn’t have to pay for gas or electricity right this single minute.

K: Right.

J: But they don’t want to share it with us. It’s only for the elite, and we’re not included there. We can go to war, you know, and be subjects for weapons and tests and stuff like that, but we are not going to share in that technology. But out there there’s a fantastic universe, fantastic set of planets. It’s really interesting out there.

B [off camera]: John, I would like to ask you a few questions, basically on behalf of the people who are watching this video. We’re asking these questions on their behalf. First of all, I want to say that our source, Henry Deacon, told me personally – I don’t think this is on our site, because for me it felt outlandish – He said that there’s life on every planet in the solar system. He looked me in the eye and he said: You may well not believe this, but I promise you it’s true. [John laughs]

He said that Venus is not as hot as they want you to believe. He said the sun doesn’t work the way that they teach you in school. He said a whole bunch of stuff that corroborates what you’re saying.

Now, he was on the inside. He’s worked in deep black projects all over the place in a number of establishments. And so his source comes from briefing documents, conversations with other physicists, and so forth and so on.

Where do you get your information from here? Because this is so extraordinary and way off the end of the spectrum, that people need to know how you figured this out, or who has told you this, or what your sources are.

J: Specifically the sun, that came from a document in the Branton Files.

K: OK. So have you ever met Branton?

J: No, but we used to talk a lot. I’m not sure I ever met him face to face. But his name was… what? His real name?

K: I forget his real name.

J: I think it’s Dave something. But anyway, we used to be real close and then he got sick for a while and I don’t know what he does. But his information is SO interesting. And I have no reason to believe that most of it’s not true. Have you read the Branton Files?

K: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

J: They’re lengthy. I have a three-inch binder, that I had them printed out.

K: I mean, he’s the one who really publicized the Dulce Base information big time in those files. And you’re familiar with all of that, right?

J: The whole Dulce story started in 1987 when me, Linda Howe, Tom Adams, and several others met in Crestone, Colorado, to discuss the state of UFOs. And during that meeting – it was about 3 or 4 days – Tom Adams walked over to me and handed me a note. – [Gestures at piles of papers on desk] It’ll turn up eventually, but I don’t have it right now – And the note was from him, who I call “Mr. X,” in Henderson, Nevada, and told him about that he had a friend that worked at an underground base in New Mexico… that the walls, the halls, went on forever, tiled walls, and a little bit of this stuff. And Tom handed it to me. He says: John, I don’t have time to go out there, research this. Would you look into it? And I said: Sure.

So when I got back… And before I got back, me and Linda Howe went in my truck all throughout New Mexico. We stopped and talked to Ernie Edwards who was the, you know, the key figure in the Bennewitz deal.

And then, she and I drove down through Corona to see Clifford Stone. And she and I took that road that goes from Corona over to the main highway down to Roswell. And we’re going to find the Roswell ranch. And we get to the turnoff and there’s 30 dead cows there. [Kerry laughs] It was CRAZY. And so… They didn’t have the classic mutilations, but they were dead. And we talked to the farmer there and he said: Oh yeah, there’s some kind of a virus going around. And I forget what the whole story was, but none of it made any sense. And we went down and interviewed Clifford Stone.

Then I eventually drove back to Las Vegas, and met with Mr. X. And Mr. X started telling me about Dulce, about the guard that had witnessed the atrocities that were going on there, and didn’t agree with them, and he decided to escape. And he escaped with – allegedly – 7 minutes of video tape that showed the hallway, 25 black and white photos, and a hundred pages of information.

K: Now, we’re told this is buried on top of a mountain and is inaccessible.

J: I’ll get to that. So…

B: And that guy was Thomas Castello. Is that correct?

J: Thomas Castello. So Mr. X had met Thomas Castello and was very good friends with him. And when he escaped, he made six of these boxes. And what he did is, he gave a box to each one of his friends. And Mr. X was one of them. And Mr. X took me down to Dolan Springs where he hid his box on the top of a mountain. Now, I didn’t go to the top of the mountain or see exactly where it was. But he showed me, you know, where it was generally.

So we get back and I talk to Mr. X over a period of three or four months. And eventually he shows me some pencil drawings that he drew from the original photographs. Those became the infamous “Dulce Papers.” And I have the originals right here that I drew from those pencil drawings. And so I drew them.

K: And what are they drawings of?

J: Of the interior of Dulce

K: I see. Well, I don’t know if we’ve seen them or not. But can we get those on camera?

J: Yeah.

K: OK. Do they contain any pictures of aliens?

J: No. They just show the lab, with all the hookups of the bags and everything.

B: Are these the drawings that were published in Matrix Two? Matrix One?

J: Right. Matrix One. And the way that Matrix happened is, when I kept getting into all this, a guy kept knocking on the door – John Grace – and: Hey, I’d like to talk to you. And that was at the time that I was having so much trouble with Marilee and I kept saying, you know: Don’t come here. I don’t want to talk about it.

Finally he came in and we developed a long relationship of collaborating on information. And Matrix One, every page, came off that desk [points across the room]. And I wish I had that book. My mom passed away and there was one left that she had in mint condition and I gave it to one of my nieces. So I don’t have an original Matrix One. I have an original Matrix Two. And now it’s up to Matrix Five.

Anyway, John Grace was a really interesting guy. He did a hell of a lot of research. He worked for Nellis Air Force Base. And one day during this period, like late ‘87, he wrote a kind of a “State of the Research” – where we were at, as far as what we had found out. And he wrote it. He wanted to get it out, but he didn’t want to use his name. So he wanted to suggest a name and I said: Why don’t you call it Krill? K-R-I-L-L (because the Pentagon dealt with an alien back in ’84 called C-R-L-L-L.)

So he said OK and he came up with, out of the blue, the initials O.H. and it became the “O.H. Krill Papers.” And we weren’t trying to shy anybody on. We weren’t trying to put any false information out. It was just what we thought the state of the art was then. And John wanted to know and we made up that name.

So, later it became a full-fledged disaster because Bill Cooper started coming up then. And Bill Cooper and I did several video interviews. And one of them was PM Magazine in Salt Lake City. And during that interview they asked about “The Krill Papers,” and Bill Cooper said he’d seen them in the Navy 20 years prior! When, you know, John Grace and I had dreamed them up like two months prior to that. [Kerry laughs]

And the other thing was, there was a paragraph out then talking about the Excalibur weapon. And the Excalibur weapon was a weapon that the military were developing that would penetrate 1,000 feet of soil. And Bob Lazar had written that, like two months prior. And Bill Cooper had said he’d seen that in the Navy 20 years prior!

So I took Bill Cooper out of the room and said: What in the hell are you talking about? John Grace and I wrote that Krill paper and Bob Lazar wrote the Excalibur. He said: Well that may be, but I saw them in the Navy.

So that’s when Bill Cooper and I started to split because I couldn’t understand why he was saying stuff like that. And then it became known as “UFO disease.” And UFO disease is where you get so popular in the UFO field and you don’t have anything new to say, you make it up.

K: OK. Well, let me ask you something, because as far as I know, the Matrix books are written by Val Valerian, who is John Grace, right?

J: That’s John Grace. Right.

K: So Matrix Five talks about Planet X, I’m told. I’ve got Matrix Five and I don’t remember seeing Planet X referred to in there. But, you know basically I was just told that it reminded, I guess, that it talks about Planet X. I mean, it certainly talks about everything in there. But, you say Planet X is a complete fallacy. So, are you still in touch with John Grace? Do you know why he says it’s true?

J: No, I don’t know. John Grace… You know, I ordered Matrix Five and I read the first 30 pages and I couldn’t get any further. So… There may be a Planet X. There may be a Nibiru. But it’s not going to destroy Earth in 2012.

K: OK. What about meteors? You know, aimed at this planet, that are heading in.

J: We’ll be protected. You don’t have to worry about meteors.

K: And how, by what?

J: The guys who take care of us.

K: Which is…? Are you talking aliens? Are you talking HAARP?

J: Yeah. Aliens.

K: Do we have any idea which aliens are protecting us? Or do you?

J: Probably the Grays. The Grays are responsible for what we call the physical body, which Bob read up at the test site are the “containers.” They referred to it as containers. That’s their job. They see that everything goes OK. And the container contains the souls. The Grays can change souls from body to body, but their responsibility is not the soul. That’s somebody else. And I don’t know who that person is. The Grays are just here responsible for the “containers.” That’s why there would never – unless it was under extremely unusual circumstances – would a meteor ever hit the Earth. There will be no catastrophe like that.

Let’s keep that thought and I’m going to have something to eat here…

Back to Contents

John Lear Tells All – Part 3
Las Vegas, Nevada

April 2008

John Lear: You know, he was going nuts then because they were shooting his tires out. He came here the night… the day they shot his tires out, or the one tire out. And, you know, he came here and said: John, I’m going to turn myself in. And I said: Bob, there’s nobody to turn yourself in TO. Now stop it! You know?




Start of interview

J: Now [holding papers] these are the original Dulce papers. They were written in pencil by Mr. X, who lives in Henderson. And the reason he wrote them down was so that I could distribute them.

And there’s a page of information. And then there’s the drawings here that you can see are of the lab, and the vats with the human meat in it. And [pointing to a page] the test tubes with growing humans and different… [pointing] This is the womb with the different humans. [turning page] And the different vats. And the…

Kerry Cassidy: Where did these papers, the drawings, come from?

J: Mr. X copied them from the photographs that Thomas Castello gave to him to hide.

K: Okay.

J: Mr. X got ONE of the boxes. One of the boxes was hidden in the mountains near Dolan Springs, which is southeast of here on your way to Kingman. So the deal was, they were af…

Oh, and then I took these, [shuffles through papers on desk] and what I did was, typed it up and made new black and white drawings from the pencil drawings, ’cause you couldn’t see the pencil drawings very clearly.

[pointing to drawing] So, you see you have the vat here and the little thing that comes down. It says: Seems to keep water vibrated. It was an amber liquid. And it gives the approximate dimensions. It says: Looks like large pieces of pale meat in cloudy water – submerged, not floating.

[turning pages] Each one of these is a description of one of the photos that Castello gave Mr. X. Here’s a picture of the cameras on the doorway to [points to words] scores of tanks or more. [turns page] And this is…

K: Now I forget. What happened to Thomas Castello?

J: I’m going to tell you. So [close-up of drawing] here’s a picture of… These “wombs” are hooked into machines. [reading] Wombs submerged in sort of yellow liquid, looks thicker than water. And these humans are growing there. [pointing to words] Creatures float in amber-colored water. Womb is grayish globs of yellow-white in grooves. Dozens of creatures in each womb. Can’t count the tanks – maybe scores or hundreds.

[points to drawing]These wombs were 2 feet vertically and 3 to 4 feet horizontally. These creatures… if you take them out of this womb… Here’s what it would look like if they placed them in your hands. [reading] They have three fingers, two toes. They’re not human. The color is wrong. Looks blue-gray. They have a very thin skin and they’re about 6 inches high.

[close-up of drawing]. These are what the test tubes look like. The room light was pink/purple, bright in some areas. Hundreds of these various stages of growth. In other words these tubes, these things that grow in here, are in various stages of growth.

Wispy hair, not quite a nose. The mouth looks sealed. The womb looks gray. Veins look dark gray. Creature white, pale eyes, dark lids. Can’t find a gender. Two toes, three fingers. Liquid amber color, not completely clear. Looks like the glass tube is about 5-foot high.

Then, [turning pages] this is various information. We don’t know what that is, but that was in the papers.

So Castello made 5 or 6 of these, waterproof, wrapped in plastic, containers. And they had [reading]: 25 black and white photos, video tape with no dialogue, and a set of papers that included technical information of the alleged jointly-occupied US/alien facility, one kilometer beneath the Archuleta Mesa near Dulce, New Mexico. Several persons were given the above package to hold for safekeeping. Most of those given the package were shown what the package contained, but were not technically oriented, or knew very little about what they were looking at.

So Mr. X was given one, hid it, and the deal was… Thomas was on the run. And Dulce or any of those operations send out bounty hunters. And these are like bikers or stuff, that could go find somebody for money. And they’re very serious about their occupation, and usually it doesn’t take very long to go get somebody.

But anyway, Thomas told Mr. X: I’m going to be here every 4 months, just to show you that I’m alive. Or I’ll be in contact. If I miss TWO four-month contacts, or 8 months – two in a row – then you can release these papers.

So, this all happened in 1987. And I think 1993 or ’94 was when Castello missed his connections. In other words, he missed the contact at the first 4 months and the second at 8 months. So it was decided to go and get the box.

I didn’t go myself, but I believe Bill Hamilton did. I think he was one of them. And I think Tal was another one, but I’m not sure, I don’t remember. It’s been, you know, almost 20 years ago. But I do remember that it was a serious effort, that they made at least 6 expeditions in to find this box and it was never found.

Bill Ryan [off camera]: You said it was buried at the top of the mountain? Is that correct?

J: It wasn’t at the top. I don’t think it was at the top. It was hidden about half way up.

K: We heard there was like a spell or black magic, you know, some kind of spell cast on that whole area around the box.

J: Could have been. I do know that there is nothing secret that any of us do. We’re always on film or video or some kind of camera, have been for 40 years. There’s absolutely nothing we can hide. Nothing we think or say or do is secret.

K: Meaning you guys are surveilled because you were involved?

J: No. Everybody. Every person on the face of the Earth.

K: [laughs] Oh. Right!

J: There’s nothing that anybody does that’s secret. And the Navy… In some of the stuff that Linda Howe came out with…

As a matter of fact I had a chance to talk with her the other day. She had found some papers in her garage that looked pretty technical and she said she had got them in the late ’80s, but she had never read them.

And so now that she had taken the time to read them, she thought they had a lot of value… and were they mine? And I said, No, they don’t sound like mine. And she said, Okay. Well I’m going to post them. So she posted them on her website. And somebody on ATS says: Hey man, ya got to look at this. Or maybe not on ATS. I think it was gone by then. It was somebody, like on Open Minds.

And I said, Okay, I’ll take a look. So I went over there. And it was… You know, you have to pay dues. Or, you know, you have to pay a fee to get on her stuff. So I couldn’t get in.

K: Right.

J: So I wrote her and I said: Linda, I’m a little short at this time. [Kerry laughing] Can you let me look at them? And I never heard from her. So I got somebody to download it and I read it all. And all it was was stuff that me and Tal and everybody else in the industry… Somebody had taken all that and put it together like it was one big, you know, document.

K: Oh. Okay.

J: All of our stuff. And there’s some hidden phrases. The one that I remember specifically was talking about a former Attorney General in Nevada named Brian, and I forget what his first name was. His last name was Brian, and it was spelled B-R-I-A-N. And his real name is BRYAN.

For some odd reason I have the capacity to recall stuff that happened, you know, 50 years ago – exactly. And I don’t know what it is, you know? But I can recall stuff I read; stuff, you know… people I talked to. Anything to do with this. [touching papers on his desk] It’s instant. And I don’t know about how it works, because there’s a lot of other stuff I don’t remember.

K: Wow.

J: But stuff like… Reading… I can take that document and read right through it and say No, I know who wrote each one of these. You know? And recall that. So…

K: That’s great.

J: The document that she had was not secret at all.

K: So the box was never found? What about the other 6 boxes?

J: Each one was given to a friend and none of them was found.

K: Okay.

J: So that’s pretty much the end of the Dulce story. It comes up every once in a while.

K: What about Mark Richards? Have you ever heard of him? He’s the guy… Well, he’s a guy who said he was a security guard, who is in prison right now for another, you know… it was like a set-up. He says he was set up for murder. His wife, Joanne, I guess is out…

J: Total, total unadulterated bullshit!

K: Really?

J: And that’s from three of us who have researched that story backwards, forwards, upside down. That’s The Dark of the Moon, or something like that. I mean, it was crazy. When I started to read that… I actually paid for it! I sent… you know, actually paid real money for that story. And, you know, because he says he was a test pilot for my father back in the late ’40s. And that would have fit because, you know, he did use test pilots back then.

And some of it sounded pretty interesting. But then, when I read the attack on Dulce and, you know, the attack… The Dulce story, the fight, what we call the “Dulce war,” was not a war at all.

What happened is they were in the … This is like in the late ’70s, I think it was. ’79. The Gray – one Gray – was giving a class to about 40 US scientists. And it was at Dulce. And it was just a class. And guards – our guards, the Delta Force – were advised they were not allowed to go into a classroom with a Gray, or approach a Gray, or be anywhere near a Gray, with a firearm of any sort.

And so, for whatever reason, this security guard walked into this instructional class with a weapon and the Gray killed him instantly. I mean there was no warning, no nothing, just killed him instantly.

K: Oh wow.

J: And so the Delta Force who were watching it on the monitor went in force to get, you know… to take revenge on something they had witnessed. And when it was all said and done, there was 66 people killed and it included all the scientists and all the Delta Force. Now…

B: By the one Gray?

J: By the one Gray. So I had heard this story. And when Bob was at S-4, he read the identical story. He heard the word Dulce. The only difference between the document – the briefing he read on the massacre – was that it occurred at Area 51. And the only possible explanation that I have for that is, his clearance hadn’t advanced high enough for him to know about Dulce. Because it didn’t happen at Area 51. It happened at Dulce. But he did read the whole description, and he talks about that.

Maybe we’ll have time… There’s a videotape over there [points across the room] called The Bob Chronicles and very few people have seen it. And what it was, was when Bob decided not to go back to work at the test site and he was, you know… He was going nuts then, because they were shooting his tires out. He came here the night… the day they shot his tires out – or the one tire out.

And… you know, he came here. He said: John, I’m going to turn myself in. I said: Bob, there’s nobody to turn yourself in TO! Now stop it! [John and Kerry laughing] You know? And so he slept on the couch that night and um… I lost my train of thought there. He slept on the couch… What was I talking about?

B: Before that you were talking about his having seen these documents but he wasn’t cleared to know about Dulce. But he was told about the firefight.

J: Right.

K: But you were saying this tape… the tape that he recorded…

J: Oh, the tape – The Bob Chronicles. So anyway, right after that George Knapp went in and did an hour of interview over at his house to get everything on tape that he could possibly tell us, so that if they did kill him, then that at least we’d have that.

K: Oh.

J: And that was before we had made, you know, the Lazar tape. The Lazar tape, you know, took three or four months to do, you know. And then that was a professional one. But what George wanted to do was get the meat of the information right now so that we had a….

K: So you’re saying you have that?

J: Yeah, it’s right there [pointing across the room]. I gave it to Ron, um….

K: Garner?

J: Garner… the other day, to put it on DVD.

K: Did you?

J: [nodding] Mm hm.

K: So, are you going to try to sell it?

J: I don’t think so. I told ’im… No, it’s… We tried to get it… I talked to George about it and he said no, technically it belongs to Channel 8. So he can’t do anything with it. So I said, Okay. I just show it to friends, you know, to say that…

K: Yeah, we’d love to see it!

J: Sure.

K: That’d be great.

J: So in a few minutes here we’ll take a little break and I’ll show that.

B: I’d like to ask you how that dovetails into the Phil Schneider story about the firefight at Dulce.

J: Well, you know, Phil’s a great guy. I met him on several occasions. It’s a great story. I think there’s aspects of Phil Schneider’s story that are true, but I don’t think the Dulce is. And I don’t think that he was in the Dulce firefight. Because everybody got killed there.

K: Well isn’t it possible there’s more than one?

J: Firefights?

K: Yeah.

J: Possible. But Bob only read one. And the guys that I’ve talked to… A few minutes ago we were talking about the insiders that I had met. And then the one insider I told you about – that told me about building the piece of mining equipment that was so huge and he doesn’t know how it went to the Moon – he talked about Dulce. And he said that he knew it as Section D. And there’s other people that know it as section D and not Dulce.

K: Okay.

J: That guy specifically… he was the insider. When I talk about an insider, this guy was on the inside, and he said… You know, he told me stuff I hadn’t heard before. For instance, I’d always heard that we’d been to the Moon earlier than 1969. He said: Yeah, we were there in ’62; to Mars in ’66.

K: Wow!

J: He was the one that told me about the fourth astronaut being killed in Apollo 1, because he was there two hours later. And they sent him specifically. He didn’t say why they called for him or what he did. But he said that instantaneously as the fire was going out, NSA, who controls everything there – it’s not NASA; it’s the National Security Agency – they locked down the whole area.

Nobody moved while they went in there – NSA guys – and removed that body. They had to, you know, take Grissom and Chaffee and White and get that guy. ’Cause where he was sitting was down by the environmental control unit. And I’ll show you what the Apollo module looks like… because when you first start talking about a fourth guy, it’s: Oh there’s no room, I’ve seen it in a museum.

Well, there’s plenty of room down there because that’s where they stored the Moon rocks… were going to store the Moon rocks. And the guy would stick his feet there and lay his head up on the instrument panel. And the astronauts would be laying this way [motioning behind and over his head] and he’d be laying that way [pointing towards his feet].

And what it was, was there was always a fourth guy there to help them sort out their problems. Now, that particular day, Joe Shea was supposed to be there and for some reason Joe couldn’t be there. And so this astronaut, whoever he was, was in there helping them sort these problems out.

And any book over there [pointing] on Apollo that you read, the official story is that Walt Schirra met with Joe Shea at lunch and said: You know, why don’t you hook up an extra fourth headset in there and send somebody else in to go help them sort out their problems?

And Joe Shea allegedly said: Yeah. I think we’ll try that out. And then each book goes on to say it was too difficult to do; that they woulda had to hang wires out the hatch, and they had to seal the hatch – so they couldn’t do it. And all that, of course, is bullshit. They had everything wired for a fourth astronaut in there just for that specific purpose, to help them sort through the problems.

Now you know Clark McClelland?

B: Clark McClelland, yes.

J: Clark McClelland and I have talked of this at length. And, you know, to this day it hurts him to talk about it, because it was so awful. But, you know, we’ve talked about what happened after that, you know. And his feeling is – he’s the one that told me – he said it was not a specific KILL, but they let it happen. They let them die. And this one really hurts Clark.

Okay, about a week ago CNN said that a 220-mile by 40 or 50-mile chunk of ice had broken off from Antarctica and that it just demonstrated how serious global warming was becoming. And it had a video taken by a British crew in a Twin Otter, flying along this huge chunk of ice that was cut as straight as an arrow for 40 miles.

And, this was trying to be sold to us, the public, as something that had just broken off, when it was obviously a direct energy weapon that had made all the square cuts on this. And they’re using the weapons that they have – the direct energy weapons – to do all kinds of stuff like that.

That one was to cut that piece of ice off so that we would worry about global warming. Which… yes, there is global warming, but we had nothing to do with it. It’s just a natural cycle of Earth that is going to go warm up for a while and then it’ll cool off for a while. There’s nothing we can do about it.

Other things they have done with that… certainly the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, was absolutely a direct energy weapon. No doubt about it. I’m sure that Timothy McVeigh is alive and well now. He was part of the operation. There’s no way that they’d let him die. That was a test for the direct energy weapon, which was pre-assessed for the 911.

And talking about the Atlas 5 mystery launch… Atlas 5 is a missile that we… is one of our current missiles that we use to launch all kinds of things into space. This one was launched 24 hours after Atlantis, the STS-122, was scrubbed at Kennedy Space Center. Patrick AFB is right next to that; it’s the military Cape Canaveral.

And somehow they got this thing launched in 24 hours. And I’m just saying the importance of the story was, something that was going to go up in Atlantis HAD to get up there, and there was no delaying it. So they had to get the range ready and put these astronauts – I’m sure they were astronauts; it could have been cargo, but I’m sure it was astronauts – in this Atlas 5 and launch it.

Now the Atlas 5, of course, has a huge payload on top, and there could be anything in it. I’ve never seen what’s in it. I assume there’s a little spaceship in it and two or three astronauts get in it. When Atlas 5 goes up, it opens like that [motioning with hands cupped and then opening them], and that little spaceship goes out and can maneuver between all the other space platforms we have. And then it can come back in and glide in and land.

What’s so suspicious about this is they got that thing into the air within 24 hours after Atlantis was scrubbed – and the story they put out with it. And later I’ll show you the headlines of that story which made it so suspicious.

One of the things I wanted to tell you about is that I’ve been driving between Las Vegas and Reno for maybe 30 years. My folks moved up there in 1968. I moved here in 1974. And about two-thirds of the way to Reno there’s a nice little town called Hawthorne, Nevada. There’s a nice little lake there. It’s called Walker Lake. It’s about 14 miles long and about 80 feet deep. It’s a very picturesque little place, huddled up against the mountains.

There’s two military operations there. One is an Army ammunition fabrication, where they make different types of explosives – missiles, that type of stuff. That’s on one side of the road. On the other side of the road is a place called NUWC, and that stands for the “Naval Undersea Warfare Center.”

Now, every time I go by there I see that beautiful little sign that says “Navy Undersea Warfare Center,” and I realize we’re about as far out in the middle of Nevada as you can possibly get. All there is, is sand and mountains as far as you can see. And this little teeny lake. It couldn’t possibly be used for undersea warfare training because it’s not that big.

So I’ve always wondered… And you can look down in there – and it kinda slopes down towards the lake – and you see a couple of nondescript buildings, but nothing very interesting. So I’ve always wondered what that place is.

Now over the years, flying for the different airlines that I’ve had, I’ve talked to three different people who have said there’s a submarine base there.

Now, I’ve always, you know, wondered, first of all… Submarines couldn’t come up in Walker Lake. It just can’t happen. It’s too shallow. There’s no way they could do that. And, besides, there’s a bottom to that and they couldn’t come out. So these people have been very knowledgeable who have told me this, and I’ve always wondered what the real deal was.

So last August I gave a talk at the San Jose UFO Expo West. And my topic was The Civilization on the Moon, when I talked about the civilization on the Moon. And, after it, a Navy guy came up – in full dress uniform, young man – and thanked me for my talk.

And I said: Should you be here?
And he said: Oh yeah, no problem.
I said: Great! When were you last down in the tubes? Or I said: Have you been down in the tubes lately?
And he said: Every day.

Now that’s the key question you ask a Navy guy. Because, you know, the Navy has an underground tube system that goes all around the world, and it’s very, very fast. You can go anywhere in the world in an hour. And it’s very secret. It’s been operational since, you know, the ’60s – and everybody knows about it – but it’s a big, big secret. And it’s a big Navy secret.

I’ve known some really, you know, interesting and top level Navy guys, and I’ve never found anybody that actually admitted being down there except this one guy. So when he did that, I said: You know, this guy’s in. He knows it. So I met with him later and he told me a lot interesting things.

K: Well, what’s the description of the tubes? When you say “the tubes,” you’re talking about… like what? A high-speed train?

J: Yeah. It’s a high-speed train. It’s about the diameter of this room. And they have little cars that you get into and you lay kind of prone like this [leaning back in chair], and you pull the hood down there [simulating by putting hand over his head and down in front of him]. And WHOOSH! And you’re, you know, anywhere in the world in an hour.

K: Wow.

J: I talked to this guy and one of the things I said, you know: Do you know anything about Hawthorne? [Kerry laughs]
And he said: No. He said: Why?
And I said: Well, you know, there’s the Naval Undersea Warfare Center there.
[He said]: Oh yeah. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah, he said. The entrance is in… north of Fort Ord on Monterey Bay. [Kerry laughs]

He said that the Pacific Ocean underlies California, Nevada and Idaho. And he said [pointing to map of the western US] that’s the channel that goes from Monterey Bay to Hawthorne, and then there’s an elevator at Hawthorne that goes down 4300 feet – because the altitude of Hawthorne is 4300 feet – and the elevator takes them down to sea level under Hawthorne.

And that’s why the Army base is there, is because they make the ordnance that goes in the submarines. And that’s why you never see, or nobody’s ever seen, any ordnance-laden trucks come out of Hawthorne either south or north. They don’t. They go right down to the Pacific Ocean where the submarines go in and they load up there and they come out here [pointing to California coast on map].

And there’s also… Now I know what a friend of mine was… Scottie Lyon, SEAL Team 6, one of the original SEAL Team founders. Great guy, passed away now, so now I can tell. He told me there was a secret Navy base in Lake Tahoe. He didn’t tell me more than that. But now I see what everybody is talking about. There’s underground bases, Naval bases, that – connected by the Pacific Ocean – that go all over.

There‘s some up in Idaho. And who knows? You know, a few months ago on ATS a guy said that his father worked on nuclear submarines in St. Louis, Missouri. So, you know, and he went down there and he saw the lake and everything. So my question was: Did they come up the Mississippi? Or did they come eastbound in the Pacific Ocean to there? So then the question is: Does it connect with the Atlantic? And it’s very possible it does.

Two of the original nuclear submarines that were lost by the Navy, as you remember, were the Thresher and the Scorpion. And both of them had fantastic stories of, you know, a valve coming apart, or attacking a Soviet submarine, and that kind of stuff.

But if you go into the Branton Files and read about that story, those subs were lost exploring this area here [pointing to map of California to Nevada]. Both of them… the Thresher and the Scorpion.

And what was interesting is… on ATS when I first started talking about this [laughing] they called in the big team from the Pentagon. [Kerry laughs] And this blowhard Navy guy comes in, you know, all huffy and huffy, and: I hear somebody wants to talk about the Thresher and the Scorpion, you know.

And I let him have it. And of course he’s gone the next day. He didn’t realize, you know. He thought he was going to, you know, intimidate us there. That was really interesting.

Now one of the other things I heard about was a computerized battleship. It’s called Fleet 21. It exists. They just finished their sea trials southwest of Coronado. It’s going into full operation now.

It’s 600 feet long, and just exactly like any other battleship, except there’s not one person on it. It’s all computerized. There’s a helicopter landing pad on the back, that if anything goes wrong, they bring in a team with nine members, and they go down and they get to the computer room and they fix it, and then take off. But what that allows us to do is make total attacks with a battleship with nobody being hurt.

[Kerry laughs]

J: The other thing I heard was we have [holding a drawing] what’s called a Fast Attack Submarine.

Now, the stuff that I’m telling you is technically not classified, for this reason: Several years ago it was determined that the minute you classified something, you had to do so much paperwork that it became unclassified. Too many people had to know about it. So the best to do was not tell anybody about it except those people that knew about it and not classify it. And that way you can keep it more secret – if that makes any sense.

[showing diagram] This is the nuclear-powered Fast Attack Submarine. The interesting thing about this is, I believe it uses fusion instead of fission. It’s only 70 feet long. Imagine a nuclear source that could power that thing within that small a space.

[pointing to side of vessel] This is a 12-man SEAL Team Lockout. And this is the submarine. I think there’s about 70 of them now. That’s the one, I believe, that cut the cables, because they can dive down deep enough, get down there and have their 12-man team go out there and do whatever they want with the cables. This thing is very highly advanced. It’s 70 feet long, goes 120 knots and has a nine-man crew.

[pointing] The ROV here stands for Remote Operated Vehicles. They’re tucked in there and there’s three of them. One of them can fly. They can actually go up and fly around and take pictures or do whatever you want.

Now, you look at the 120 knots speed and say: John Lear, now come on, we know that planing and submerged hulls cannot possibly go that fast. Well, the fact is, now they’ve found, or they’ve perfected, solved, “boundary layer control.” And boundary layer control is that portion of the sea that comes in contact with the ship and creates friction.

B: So it’s similar to the technology they’ve got on the wings of the B2 Bomber?

J: Yeah.

B: But applied to water.

J: Submarines.

B: I understand.

J: And they make the stuff up in space in manufacturing plants. When the shuttle comes back and when other airplanes… (I’ll show you another picture of an airplane here that was seen over Ireland a couple years ago) …come back, they’re bringing parts. And they bring it back in sheets, rolls and bars.

And it’s a stuff that’s fantastic, and you can do all kinds of stuff. But what the most important thing you can do… Like on submarines, it keeps the boundary layer – that layer between the hull and the sea – about 3 to 5 centimeters away, so there’s absolutely no friction. Nor is there any noise associated with that.

So they use that not only on their new battleships, but on their submarines, and on their airplanes. It’s a really, really fantastic piece of material.

So that’s how they can go 120 knots. We know that the displacement hull of a boat, like say, the Ronald Reagan… Thetheoretical max speed is 1.34 times the waterline. So we know the waterline of the Ronald Reagan is about a 1000 feet. So you take 1.4 times the square root of that and you come out with about 32 knots. And that sounds reasonable to most people. You know, as aircraft carriers going 32 knots – man, that’s really hauling.

The fact is, I think the Ronald Reagan goes about 90 knots. The reason I think that is because the Enterprise definitely went 75 knots. I have friends that operated on that, and they said that whenever they had to go some place fast, they would tell everybody to get below decks – you know, because weather was coming. And then they’d get it up to 75 knots.

The reason they did that is: Number 1 – they didn’t want anybody figuring out how fast they went. And they didn’t want to get them blown off deck. Because 75 knots is really rolling – that’s almost 90 miles an hour! And you don’t want anybody trying to walk across on the deck when they’re used to just maybe walking around at 30 knots.

And then when you say: Well, when they got there, wouldn’t they ask any questions? No. The fact is nobody asks any questions.

TWA 800 was shot down by a Navy submarine. It’s been kept under wraps like that. I often hear people say: Well that’s not possible because we know that Navy guys are the most talkative in the world and certainly somebody would talk.

That’s not true. Navy is one of the closest-knit forces in the world. Nobody says nothing unless they’re supposed to. And there’s no possible way that anybody on that submarine would have ever told anything. Yes, one person did call his Dad. And that person called Jim Sanders, who wrote The Downing of Flight TWA 800. But that was the only one who said anything.

B: Which missile was it?

J: I don’t know. But it was one that was aimed at a drone. And when they launched it, the drone was between TWA 800 and the submarine. And for some reason, when the missile was launched it lost – instantaneous, just for an instant – a lock on the drone. And when it reacquired a lock, it reacquired TWA 800. And when it went through TWA 800, it went through first class, you know, knocked the nose off, and caused the center tank, you know, to explode.

K: So you’re saying it was an accident.

J: It was an accident. It was a Navy accident. They were just using it for live-fire exercises.

K: Right.

J: And they had done that forever. And that was the fifth airplane – civilian airliner – that the Navy had shot down since 1963.

The first one was Flying Tiger Line, who I worked for. A Lockheed Constellation over Guam, where a Navy pilot went up and he was just doing some, you know, aiming at the airliner going by because he had nothing else to aim at, and accidentally let a missile go. And it shot down, killed everybody on board. And that accident was always, you know, “unknown causes.”

But it caused Flying Tiger Lines to be the largest cargo carrier during the Vietnam War and the Pentagon to authorize a separate Flying Tiger Airline, which was called Flying Tiger Air Services, to run the extra flights down from Japan, down to Vietnam. I mean, Flying Tigers made a fortune off that accident. And I was in close con…

B: Just before I lose the point, I’d like to compare the testimony here. Because we were told by Henry Deacon – now he actually asked us to take this off our website – because he was curious about what had happened to TWA 800. So when he was on the inside, he asked around.

He said it was a Stinger missile. They aimed exactly at the drone and just missed. This is exactly the way he said it. He said it was a Navy genuine accident. He said the whole thing was covered up. He said the thing was right at the top of its classified altitude limit – which is higher than is publicized – about 14,000 feet.

J: That’s possible. Because it’s publicized at 8,000 feet. And that’s why all this cancelled the Stinger out.

B: Yes. Is it possible that a Stinger would be fired from a submarine? I thought this thing was hand-held.

J: No, I think the Stinger story and its classified altitude is… Maybe we’re trying to make it like… terrorists fired it instead of the Navy. We would rather have terrorists fire it instead of our Navy. Because our Navy just shot down the Iranian ship, so why did they shoot down…

B: What Henry said was that it was a Stinger, but it was a Navy accident.

J: It could have been. Whatever it was, I doubt if a Stinger would be fired from a Navy vessel. There’s too much evidence that the Navy did it. They did it and I doubt if they did it with a Stinger.

B: OK.

J: A Stinger has an explosive on it and there were no explosives in TWA 800. There was only the fuel which damaged anything. And that’s for the record.

B: Okay.

J: Sanders did an excellent thing on that. But anyway, so that was TWA 800. And it affected me directly because what the FAA came up with as an excuse – and you know, this is all Richard Clark’s fault – you know, trying to blame it on a center tank, exposed wiring in a fuel pump.

That’s SO impossible, I cannot even tell you! During the time of this investigation I was flying a Lockheed L1011, which was a huge cargo airplane. It had a mammoth cargo door. and I was taking Boeing 777 cowlings from Wichita, where they were made at Boeing, to Seattle.

And when we’d wait for this thing to be loading, and we’d talk with the Boeing guys, they were just furious that the FAA and the NTSP were trying to lay this on arcing wiring in a fuel pump. Because there IS no wiring in a fuel pump that’s anywhere near the fuel.

It’s just ridiculous. And everybody was pissed off about the whole thing. I was pissed off because the FAA then said that you had to keep enough fuel to cover the fuel pump so that it wouldn’t arc – because, you know, if there’s fuel there, it can’t arc. Like it’s only if there’s fumes there, will it arc.

Well, on the L1011 we had about 115,000 pounds of cargo capacity. And if we kept the center tank fuel pump covered, we lost about two or three thousand pounds. And that was the make-or-break. And it eventually bankrupted Kittyhawk, who I was working for. But anyway…

K: I want to ask you a question. Did you know Ben Rich?

J: No. But I talked to people who did. Now I’ll tell you what Ben Rich had to do with this. First of all, do you know where he was born? Ben Rich was one of the most, the biggest, Mossad spy in the United States. I mean, he got the most classified information.

Here’s what happened. Here’s how we got messed up with Israel. In 1947 when Israel became a state, James Angleton was chief of CIA in Rome.

K: Right.

J: Okay. They sent Angleton down to Tel Aviv, along with some guys at MI-6, to form Mossad. And for some reason, whoever, or however it happened, James Angleton got allied with Mossad like this [crosses fingers] forever. He was the mole.

If you remember, in 1960 he was the head CIA Director of Foreign Intelligence and he was the guy that always was looking for the Russian mole. [laughing] HE was the Russian mole! Because, you know, he was so friends with Mossad, he’d tell Mossad stuff and Mossad would pass it on to Russia.

So when David Ben-Gurion, in the summer of 1963, said, you know: We have to kill Kennedy. We have to. I’m tired of him threatening us with inspecting Dimona. It’s none of his friggin’ business. I don’t want to hear any more from Kennedy. You kill him. He gave that order to Mossad and then resigned so that he couldn’t be held responsible for it. Mossad then went to Angleton.

The Kennedy assassination was not a CIA job, but it was greased by the CIA only because Angleton was in there with his buddies at Mossad. And he’s the one that greased the skids for everything that happened in Dealey Plaza and the escape and everything. There were Corsican sharpshooters there, hired by Mossad.

They pulled off the whole thing and everybody says: Oh, they think the mob killed Kennedy or maybe Johnson did or, you know, Castro. It wasn’t. It was Israel. And the reason they did is because David Ben-Gurion didn’t want any more inspections of Dimona. And that’s all.

K: And that’s their nuclear… That’s where they do their nuclear/biological testing?

J: That where they do the nuclear bombs, with plutonium they stole from us.

K: But what’s Ben Rich got to do with that?

J: Okay. So Ben Rich was born to a very wealthy Jewish family in the Philippines, and very highly educated. And he was slipped into Lockheed in 1953 as Kelly Johnson’s second-in-charge. And he was there for the development of the U-2 and he was there for the development of stealth.

K: There are a lot of Ben Rich, famous… kind of UFO quotes, that kind of allude to things… technology. Right?

J: Right.

B: Yeah. There’s nothing about it in that book [referring to book John’s leafing through]. That book‘s the inside story about what happened to the U-2.

K: I understand.

B: And the XR71.

K: But he did say… What’s the exact quote? You probably remember it.

J: We have stuff that would make George Lucas jealous. WE could take ET home.

K: Yeah. So, I mean, he was an insider from way back, is what you’re telling me. Right?

J: Yeah. But he was a Mossad spy, and I’m going to tell you how they did it. Okay now so…

K: But, on some level, if he’s a Mossad spy… Because the Mossad seems to be in cahoots with – if you want to call them – you, know, the Nazi, NASA-Nazi group.

J: I’m glad you understand that, because when people say: Did Israel have anything to do with 911? I say: As much as Santa Claus had to do with Christmas!

K: [laughing]

J: [laughing] So anyway…

K: So, yeah, they’re all working together. You’re telling me Angleton was involved with Mossad. You’re telling me Ben Rich was involved with Mossad. You know, we’ve got the whole… There’s a whole alignment there.

J: Absolutely-positively-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt. So now we get ready to build the stealth fighter. And this was the beginning of the real secret stuff that went on within our government.

The Navy wanted a secret stealth fighter of their own. It was called the F-19. And it gets confused here, because people say: Oh, the F-19. That was really the F-117A. They just renamed it.

No. No, the F-19 was a separate airplane. They made 62 of them. I had a friend that not only worked in avionics, but I had a friend that knew about it. He didn’t fly it, but he knew the guys who did. So they were completely separate airplanes.

At the Skunk Works in Burbank… There was a gray iron kind of curtain that went down at the Skunk Works and [gesturing right] you had the 117A on this side and the [gesturing left] F-19A on this side. They used, both, F404’s, the engines. They used, both, the same landing gear. And the reason was that they were trying to build this secret Navy airplane without any money, using spare parts from the F-117A, so they’d keep it absolutely, totally secret.

And you know what? They have, to this day. Because you can’t find a person… That’s one of the big problems I had on ATS. People would come down on me. I’d start talking about the F-19, and boy, I’ll tell you, you talk about a sensitive subject! They didn’t want to hear that.

So here we have Ben Rich on page 48 [holding up book] talking about the Skunk Works and how it works. And he says: Meanwhile, the Navy came to us to test the feasibility for Stealthy weapon systems and set up their own top secret security system that was twice as stringent as the Air Force’s. We had to install special alarm systems that cost us a fortune at the section of our headquarters building devoted to Naval work. [Kerry laughs]

Okay, now here’s the set-up. All they wanted was stealthy systems.

OK. In the next paragraph he says: In the midst of all this inter-service rivalry, security and hustle and bustle, Major-General Bobby Bond, who was in charge of tactical warfare, came thundering into the Skunk Works with blood in his eye on a boiling September morning.

The Santa Ana winds were howling and half of L.A. was under a thick pall of smoke. My asthma was acting up, and I was in no mood for a visit. But General Bond was a brooder and a worrier and drove me and everybody else absolutely bonkers at the time, as he followed the progress of the F-117A.

He always thought he was being short-changed or victimized in some way. He pounded on my desk and accused me of having some of my best workers of his “Have-Blue” airplane – which was the 117A – to work on some rumored Navy project.

I did my best to look hurt and appease Bobby and even raised my right hand in a solemn oath. I told myself: “So what? It’s a little white lie. What else can I do? The Navy project is top secret and Bonds has no need to know. We could both go to jail if I told him what was really up.”

So here he says: Unfortunately, on the way out to lunch the General spotted a special lock and alarm system above an unmarked door which he knew from prowling the rings of the Pentagon was used only by the Navy on its top secret projects.

Bond squeezed my arm: “What’s going on inside that door?” he demanded to know. Before I could think up another lie, he commanded me to open the door. He said: “Rich, you devious bastard! I’m giving you a direct order! Open the goddamn door this instant or I’ll smash it down myself with this goddamn fire-axe!”

[Kerry laughs]

The guy meant every word of it. He began pounding on the door until a crack finally opened. He forced his way in, and there sat a few startled Navy Commanders. “Bobby, this isn’t what you think,” I lied in vain. “The hell it isn’t, you lying SOB!”

I surrendered, but not gracefully. “Okay, you got me. But before we go to lunch you’re going to have to sign an ‘Inadvertent Disclosure’ form or they’ll both have our asses!” The Navy, of course, was outraged at both of us. The Air Force General seeing their secret project was as bad as handing a blueprint to the Russians.

K: [laughing]

J: OK. So…

B: That’s the F-19. You’ve got an artist’s impression of on the wall up there, isn’t it?

J: At the end? Yeah. Those are artist’s renderings.

B: Beautiful plane.

J: Okay. Now, [pointing to book] see this little thing at the bottom of the page? It says General Bond was later killed in a test flight. Because of the tragedy, the Pentagon ruled that general officers could no longer do test flights.

That was in 1984. You know what he was killed in? The story was a MIG-23 – which we all knew was bullshit. He was killed in an F-19 because he demanded the Navy let him fly it. And what they did is, they disabled… electronically disabled… the control system and killed him.

And the reason they did, is they didn’t want the Air Force to know about the Navy project. And the reason they didn’t want them to know about the Navy project is, part of those airplanes were going to carriers and part were going to Israel. And THAT’S the story of Ben Rich.

B: Are you saying that Israel had, or has, the F-19?

J: The F-19. Yeah. I mean, it’s 25 years old. I mean, it’s a big deal? Israel has… Does Santa Claus have Christmas?

[John and Kerry laughing]

K: Great stuff! Okay. I want to ask you something else also. The General who Bush just fired, or whatever you want to call it…

J: Admiral Bill Fallon! I’ve got a whole… I’ve got an Esquire story! When I heard that, I went right down to Borders and I bought that thing and brought it home and read it word for word! [Kerry laughing] I mean you talk about a good guy! You know?

K: Yeah! Absolutely.

J: Oh absolutely! I made Marilee read that. I said: You read that, because that’s the difference between war and not war!

K: Yeah, absolutely!

J: I said: If there isn’t any Navy good guys, HE’S the Navy good guy. Now, you know, he’s been involved in a lot of bad stuff. He knows about the alien… He knows about everything. But he was trying to do a good job. So that was a bad…

K: So that’s a real red herring, right?

J: Yes.

K: So we’re on a fast train somewhere right now?

B: That’s bad news that he quit, I mean, or is that just his way of…

K: He didn’t quit. He was fired, wasn’t he?

B: No, he quit.

J: No, he quit.

K: I know the story…

J: He probably knew it was coming. But the fact that he would actually say this in Esquire magazine, you know – two or three months before, knowing it was going to be published – now, you know, tells me he knows we are fast-tracking, you know, a nuke war in Iran. And there will be no war there without nuclear bombs. That’s a given.

B: What would Mike McConnell’s position be on this?

J: Mike McConnell… I’m sure, you know, he was MJ1. I think he’s a good guy. We’ve clued him in on our “Qui Tam” complaint because I think he can help. What he’s doing now doesn’t make any sense to the overall program, but, you know… I don’t know. I’m just hoping Mike is a good guy. What do you think?

B: We believe he’s a good guy. And it’s interesting…

J: You know about his complete tie-in with Dan right?

K: Oh yeah, absolutely.

B: It’s interesting to speculate that the reason for the release of the National Intelligence Estimate in early December was to spite Bush’s guns. Because that’s what it looks like… there was an attempt to stop the war.

J: And because of his tie-in with Dan, I think he’s a good guy.

K: Right. Yeah, that’s basically what we think, but because of what we’ve heard from Dan about him, you know.

J: So what I’ve told the guys in the “Qui Tam” complaint… Jerry Leaphart is the attorney; Morgan Reynolds filed it. Judy Wood filed her own separate suit. She’s the one that’s the expert in molecular disassociation – DEW’s. There’s a few people participating, including myself.

And, you know, I told these guys… I’ve been following along Morgan’s efforts. And in November I called him to make him aware of certain things I knew about airplanes that he didn’t know about. And he said: Are you the aviation guy? And I said: Yeah. And so we started an email dialogue.

And then in December he was going to take over Jim Fetzer’s program for a couple of days and he said: Would you like to be interviewed? And I said: Sure. So I went on there and then he found out just how much else I knew about 911.

And then, a couple days after that, he and Jerry emailed me and they said: You know, we’re honored at what you said. We believe, you know, you are very informed. Would you agree to help us? Would you be interested in filing an affidavit? And I said: Yeah! Tell me what you want. So I wrote that 15-page affidavit and …

K: That’s great stuff.

J: …and I’ve been with them ever since. But when I was getting into it I said: Now I want you guys to understand this – there is NO WAY we’re going to pull this off by ourselves. All we’re doing is opening the door for somebody to help us. There’s no way we can bring this. There’s too much power overhead.

I’m hoping that there’s guys like McConnell and Fallon that will see what they’re doing and figure out a way to help us – because we’re not going to do it ourselves.

K: Okay. Do you believe that America is going to dissolve into civil war sometime in the next few years?

J: I don’t think so.

K: You don’t?

[John shaking his head no]

K: Okay. Well, what do you think of the fact that a lot of stuff, a lot of government stuff, is being sent to Colorado? I mean, some say Denver is basically, you know… The Pentagon and everything else is moving to Colorado.

J: I think it’s Sandia, but I think Colorado’s a cover story. But I could be wrong. I think it’s all being sent right up there [pointing off camera]. As a matter of fact, let me undo this…. [John undoes mike and is now standing across the room]

20 years ago they were having trouble with keeping programs secret by using secret names. So what they did is, they would name a program a name that was common – like the Sandia Mountains, the Sandia Corporation, you know, the Sandia Desert, all that – and called it “Sandia.” So that if it ever came up, everybody would think: Oh you’re just talking about Sandia Corporation. I drove by there the other day. [Kerry laughs] You know, but no, that’s the way they keep something secret.

[John pulls out enlarged photo] Here’s the spaceport on the far side of the Moon. And I can just show you the NASA book with the NASA photographs and you can just take your own magnifying glass and see that spaceport. [Kerry laughs]

There’s no doubt about it. And you know why? Because the photo was taken in ’68, and NASA didn’t get serious about airbrushing until 1970. So I bought all those pre-1970 NASA photos, um… books, because they hadn’t developed their technique to airbrush…

K: Have you ever told Hoagland about that?

J: Yeah. As a matter of fact, we were on the George Noory show and George showed him that. And I said: Now does that look like a space terminal to you, Richard? And he said: No, it looks like an airline terminal.

[Kerry laughing]

Well, look. You can even see the tubes, the tube supports. I mean, there’s no doubt about it. Here’s the other thing… [pulls out another photo] Here’s a crater called Damoiseau. There is no doubt, you know, that areas like that… Those are all houses, buildings, stuff like that. I mean, there’s just no doubt.

So anyway, the other day I thought, you know, I’d just like to see…I’ve got this photo – was taken by Lick Observatory. So I got the other day… I was going to enlarge it to see if I could see that. So I take this photo here [holds enlargement] and I say: Okay it’s right here near Grimaldi, and I look. It’s all whited out!!! Look it… Here’s the beautiful fucking craters, and you look at that spot! Aren’t there any craters? No!!! It looks like there’s a fog! You’re talking about something that really pissed me off!!

[Kerry laughing]

J: So anyway I’m looking to show you Sandia. [unfolding large map]

K: Yeah. Please do.

J: This is my BEST map. [pointing to map] Here’s Las Vegas; here’s Groom Lake; here’s the Tonopah Test Range.

K: Right.

J: And here’s Sandia. It’s on the Paiute Mesa. There’s a strip up there and then there’s two new strips out on the dry lake there. And then up here they got a really neat secret base… Ely. Let’s see… here’s Wilson Creek, Lincoln, Welch. Oh, Ely, right out about here. That’s a dry lake there.

K: Well, that’s in the middle of nowhere.

J: That’s a 10,000-foot strip there. That’s a really secret one. You can drive by at 2 o’clock in the morning and every once in a while you will see the lights go on. Now, the way you can tell secret bases is, the runway lights are blue.

[Kerry laughing]

J: That’s the Air Force.

K: Really?

J: But they’ve got these…

K: Why are they blue? What’s the significance of blue?

J: That’s just what the Air Force secret-base runway lights are … Blue. So they’ve got this new deal here that’s been in effect for like 20 years. Most of these things are underground. And when a pilot comes for an approach – only when he gets to be about 500 feet – the ground unzips like that [gestures, fingertips and palms together, then palms apart] and he just lands. And the ground… could be forest; it could be a desert; it could be a cotton field, it just unzips like that. He lands. It zips back up, and they take an elevator and go down.

K: Wow! That’s great.

J: So that’s Sandia. And that’s why it’s called Sandia. It’s to make people think that it’s just a regular place.

K: So you haven’t had any exposure to time travel, to jump rooms, to…

J: No, the jump room is great. And the other day Ron Blackburn was over here because he gave my 6-year-old a computer. (And I’ll have to think about whether we should edit this out or not.) But I was talking about the jump room and Ron said: Oh yeah, I know that. It’s jump technology. He said it just like that: Oh, that jump technology. I know that. [Kerry, John laughing]

Okay, here’s the space plane that the guy saw over Ireland. [reading from a hand-drawn diagram]: It’s 10 times bigger than a Boeing 747.

K: Wow. Incredible.

J: Twin tails slightly visible. Engine bay jet black. No nozzles.

K: So you’ve never seen anything like that, have you?

J: No. He saw it at sunset. He said: Sun angle very low, almost setting. Viewed at directly 7 o’clock, directly above, and it took 7 seconds to get to the horizon. He said: Disappeared over Belfast out of sunlight. A white small nose and no vapor trail, no sonic boom. Demarcation of body sections visible, all dark gray.

B: I had some correspondence with this guy.

J: Oh you did?

B: Yeah, just a couple of months back. And we figured things out together. The thing must have been going 18,000 miles per hour.

J: Miles Johnston?

B: Yeah. That’s correct.

J: These are his original drawings.

K: Oh wow.

J: When he first called me, he said: Would you have any interest in this? I said: Of course, Miles! Send it, send it! And he said: Well…

B: Now what I did, John, was I put him in touch with Mark McCandlish so that Mark McCandlish could make a real professional drawing for him. And so the two have been working together so that Mark can add it to his file. And so those two have been having a lot of fun.

J: If I had one planet I could go to, I’d pick Saturn. Because they say that, if you even get a look at it, your mind would be so boggled that you couldn’t do anything for three days.

I found a thread called Are Extraterrestrials Real, As Real As the Nose On Your Face? And it was 108 pages long and it had been closed. It had been closed because the guy, “Sleeper,” had been getting irritated with the questioners.

So I started reading this thing, and about page 18, I said: This is real. This guy knows what he’s talking about. This fits in with everything I’ve ever read. I need to talk to this guy. So I finished the 118 pages and I put them in that book over there that says Sleeper.

And so I emailed him, PM’d him, and eventually got to talking with him. And it was so fascinating. I said: Would you mind coming back? People got to hear this stuff!
He said: No, no, I’ll come back.
And I said: Okay, now just let me run interference for you. Don’t talk back to anybody. Let me do it.

So I went to Mark Allen and I said: I’d like to see if we can get Sleeper back.
And he said: Well he better behave himself.
I said: Okay, he’ll behave himself.

And that started the I’m Coming Clean on Extraterrestrials. And that ran 250 pages. He had the most views, the most posts of any other thing. I mean it was just an enjoyable… Everybody’d get up every day to see what, you know, the answers were to some of the questions.

K: So, is this stuff still up there?

J: Yeah. I believe so. And, you know, people… It eventually got very few insults. Of course, you know, you’re always getting the guy who comes on and says: This looks like a whole load of horse pucky to me, you know and I’d handle it. I’d always get on there first thing in the morning and handle the guys so Sleeper wouldn’t have to do it.

It was great up until the very end. I mean, even at the very end, it was wonderful. And we had a LOT of fun with it.

And then, along with that, he wrote a blog called: What It’s Like to Spend a Day with an Extraterrestrial. And it’s the most fascinating space story you’ve ever read. And he said at the beginning, he said…I forget exactly what he said. He says: This is written as a screenplay, but believe it or not, every word of it is true.

And it’s about going to Uranus and the people that live on Uranus. And what the buildings look like. It’s absolutely fascinating. So I think Sleeper is 110% genuine. And, you know, if it proves he’s not, I’ll be shocked beyond all possible belief, because everything he says is dead on.

And, you know, when I talk about… And he’s taught me a lot of stuff. Because, you know, in the last few years and people ask me: Well, what’s it all about? Well I don’t know… maybe the Grays are selling our souls, or, you know, doing the… harvesting us. I was wrong. They’re here to do a job.

And Sleeper’s the one that told us – and he puts this all throughout – he says: Just try and live your life without envy, hate, and greed. Love your family. He says that’s the only way you’re going to move on. And you have to keep coming back to Earth, you know, and doing this until you learn how to do it right. And when you learn to do it right, then you get to go out and play with the adults.

So Sleeper’s the one that, you know… And when I started out… It’s really interesting to see the general transformation because, you know, in the beginning he says… People would say: Is John Lear right? Are there cities and people on the moon? And: No, no. There’s nobody up there. And at the end he said: Yeah, John Lear’s right. There are cities and people on the Moon.

It was really a neat transformation. It took a while to do, for him to come out, but it was really cool.

K: That’s great.

Back to Contents

John Lear Tells All – Part 4
Las Vegas, Nevada

April 2008

… We found a… what we assume is a fission reactor 29 miles in diameter. You can see the dome there. You can see the support sections there.




Start of interview

Kerry Cassidy: Have we missed anything, John? Is there something that you wanted to cover that we haven’t had a chance to look at?

John Lear: Just let me talk a little bit about this civilization on the Moon, because that’s been the thrust of my…

K: Okay, and tell us something about the glass structures that Hoagland is talking about because he calls it “glass.” He says it’s a special kind of glass, but do you agree with him?

J: No.

K: Okay, and why not?

J: Because he’s talking about, I think, the Apollo 14 pictures and his thrust is those glass structures are domes.

K: Right.

J: And those domes are what contain the air. No. The air… it’s a thin atmosphere but as you know, according to Boyle’s Law, in an atmosphere, the lower it is, the thicker it is, so if you have… And I had some wonderful drawings I posted but I don’t see them here. As a matter of fact, I’m going to try and find them so that you can take a picture of them because they draw EXACTLY what I’m talking about.

The air settles into the craters and if you’re in the crater, you can breathe fine. If you get out of the crater it takes a little longer. But basically, the civilization of the Moon starts back at Newton. Somebody has influenced our thought about the Moon since the beginning of our thinking about anything.

Newton, for instance, he started to venture and say, you know, that there might be more mass on the Moon. And, that’s brought out in his three books now called Principia.

Shortly after Newton died, somebody modified his thoughts to make what is called the Newton Law of Universal Gravitation which is:

F = [G m1m2] / r2

…and he didn’t come up with that. That was somebody else. He didn’t think that you had to specify what the mass was.

But, anyway, in 1856 there was a Danish mathematician and astronomer named Peter Andreas Hansen. And he proposed … He had been researching the times and the periods of Saturn and several other things. He was VERY knowledgeable. But, anyway, he was also looking at the Moon, and he had found something strange about the Moon – that when you did the predictions on where the Moon should be for a particular time, for its particular mass, it was not there.

And, so in 1856, he went before the Royal Society – Astronomical Society – and proposed that there was a “bump” on the far side of the Moon that was actually… The center of gravity was actually placed 57 kilometers farther out in space than had been generally realized. And, for that reason, he thought that there might be atmosphere on the far side. And, with this atmosphere, he thought there might be plants, vegetables, and maybe even human life.

So, he was regarded as a hero and a very interesting guy up until 1870, when a guy named Simon Newcomb came to Paris and told everybody that Peter Andreas Hansen was full of beans, there was not a shred of truth to it, and that, even if he was right about these different times, that it wouldn’t make any difference. So guess who Simon Newcomb was. He was a Rear Admiral in the US Navy and Head of the US Naval Observatory in Washington, DC.

The reason people have trouble with an atmosphere on the Moon is, to have an atmosphere, you have to have gravity. And people think that it’s one-sixth gravity. And they’ve been sold that over the years.

SOMEBODY has had an agenda here so that we DON’T think that there’s any gravity on the Moon, but there is. And, the way it can be proven is by using the Bullialdus/Newton Law of Inverse-Square, which takes the size of the planets – the diameter of the planets – and the neutral point. The neutral point is that point between the Earth and the Moon where the gravity of the Earth exactly meets the gravity of the Moon.

Now, NASA has traditionally told us that that’s 24,000 miles. And, if you work out the inverse-square law with 24,000 miles, the Moon does have one-sixth gravity. But, the fact is, the neutral point is at 43,495 miles. How do we know that? We know that because Wernher von Braun told us that in 1968. We know that because, in two of the books of Apollo, including Apollo 17 – and there was another Apollo mission – they specifically told, you know, they specifically said: Here we are at 39,000 miles and at the neutral point.

So, we KNOW that it’s between 39,000 and 43,000 miles. And either one of those would work out to be about 60–64% gravity of Earth. So, having 64% of gravity of Earth, it CAN hold an atmosphere.

And, well, people say: Well, if it has any atmosphere, how does it keep the atmosphere? Well, the same way the Earth does. They have forests, meadows, lakes, rivers, people, civilizations, and it’s on a band of the Moon that’s just beyond where we can see. And I have a picture here but I can’t find it. But it’s on a band. And that’s the same band that both Menger and Adamski visited.

I’m pretty sure Menger actually went to the Moon in 1954. They let him step out of the train and breathe the air. He’s now 86 years old, living in Vero Beach, Florida. I emailed ’im the other day to get the exact color of the Moon. And, if you could reach that picture, I could hold it up. It’s behind the cigar box. Of the Moon, the color picture of the…

Bill Ryan: I’m sorry John I don’t understand, I’m sorry, which one are you referring to?

J: It’s the long picture with the yellow sky.

K: Up at the top? You don’t mean on the wall, do you?

J: No. Behind the cigar box.

B: Oh! Here.

J: Yeah. Oh, I see… those cigar boxes.

B: I was looking at the…

J: No. Just hand me that photo right there.

B: Yeah. I’ve got you. I’ve never seen this before. Tell me what this is.

J: Okay, this is the crater Copernicus. And this is the same photo that’s up there [points to the wall] but all I did was put the exact color of the lunar sky. And how do I know that? Because I emailed Howard Menger in Florida, who took a trip there in 1954. And when he looked up into the sky, he said that’s the exact color he saw. He describes it as a saffron color. And I sent a number of swatches with different colors of saffrons to him in Florida and he marked the x on that particular color. And so I put that color behind the crater Copernicus. And that’s the color of the sky.

B: Why would it be that color? Why wouldn’t it be blue?

J: We think it’s that color because, although the atmosphere is not as dense as Earth, it’s higher. And the rays reflecting through the atmosphere will go more towards yellow.

B: But what you get on high mountains on Earth, for example, you just get a darker blue. I mean, I know that because I’ve been there. It would be a different composition of atmosphere in order to create that color effect, surely. It would contain different… different gases. Do you know anything about that?

J: No.

B: Okay.

J: All I know is, it’s breathable. He stepped out. He said it was very hot – but not as hot as we are led to believe – and he said he certainly couldn’t stand if for very long. But then he looked up and saw that color sky and now…

K: Can you tell us something about him? What is his background?

J: Howard was just a person living a normal life and they came and – or THEY – or the Moon people – came and invited him to go up there. He wrote this book called Secrets of the Flying Saucers from Outer Space: One Man’s Fantastic Revelations of Visitors from Other Worlds. He has a website. I’ve read this book several times, as you can see.

Here [holds up book] I’ve highlighted exactly what he says what he did on the Moon, where he was taken. There were a lot of other people. He said the places he went… one of the places was like the Valley of Fire in Nevada. He says: There we stop long enough for a guide to open the door and permit us to stick our heads out for a brief moment, which was all one could take, for it was terribly hot outside – like a blast furnace. I was certain that no one could have lived outside very long and was glad to have shut the door.

K: So is that maybe a basis for the domes as well, because you can regulate temperature? You can regulate…

J: Right. Yeah, I’m sure there’s small domes. I don’t think there’s any like Hoagland is saying though, huge domes all over the place.

[reading] Here he says: I looked up in the sky. It was a yellowish color. When looking, I had a queer impression that if I walked some distance I would fall off since the horizon was so foreshortened.

There was other groups with him along with ordinary folks – scientists, geologists, electronic engineers, rocket experts, astronomers.

K: But this guy is, you say, in his 80’s at this point?

J: 86. He was 86 the other day.

K: Have you met him in person?

J: Not in person. Only on email, and I’ve written to him.

K: But, basically as far as you’re concerned, he has no reason to lie. Right?

J: No. No, because his story is the same as George Adamski’s and Truman Bethurum’s. The other… what the government labeled as “contactees,” which was their way of saying: Yeah, well, you know, they’re just “contactees.” And I think both of them, both Adamski and Menger, became very important sources for the government.

When I first got into this, you know, 20 years ago, people would say: Do you think flying saucers are real? And, I would say: Yeah but, you know, the George Adamski stuff was all bullshit. It WASN’T! It was all real. So was Howard Menger. So was Truman Bethurum, and Daniel Fry. All those people were telling the exact truth!

But the fact is, if you’ve been to, you’ve seen the original government papers on who was involved in the anti-gravity project in 1952. And Lear Incorporated, my father’s company, is listed right there. And there’s a video floating around on the web that shows him at the blackboard teaching scientists at the Bahnson Institute how a flying saucer flies. And this was probably 1954/1955.

But, the fact is, we had anti-gravity solved in 1957 or 1958. And we started building our own craft and went to the Moon in 1962. And Mercury, Gemini, Apollo was just a COVER for all that was really going on.

B: Now, what do you say about the… all the NASA pictures, all the Apollo photos of the Moon that do not show the saffron sky? What’s going on?

J: Yeah, it always shows pure black. And the reason is, they couldn’t show the real color. That’s why all those photos are so fake. That’s why there’s no stars there. They didn’t have much of a choice, you know. They’re trying to say that it’s dark, that it’s a vacuum.

Well, first of all, it can’t be a vacuum because Neil Armstrong says he could pick up the dust with his toe. And we all know that a vacuum… that the dust will settle into a crust and you CAN’T pick it up with your toe. And, they couldn’t show the sky because it was a saffron color and that would lead everybody to believe there was atmosphere.

So I’m not sure whether Apollo 11 went and here’s why. Now, it may have gone to the Moon… the command surface module… and may have orbited the Moon. But the problem I have is, they only had 22,000 pounds of fuel and they went into an orbit that was about 50 miles by about 10 miles. This would be impossible with 64% gravity. But, even if it was, from ten miles they’d have to go down to the lunar surface, land, and then take off with 22,000 pounds of fuel. I don’t think that happened. I don’t think they could do it. That’s not enough fuel to do that.

Second of all, I have a group of friends that remote-viewed Apollo 11. Did it land? And they weren’t able to see any kind of landing. All they were able to see was, it was a CIA cover-up somehow.

The other one is Aldrin’s comment. And, I’d just like to read from Buzz Aldrin’s book.

B: All the astronauts had some interesting things to say, didn’t they?

J: Pardon? The what? Yeah.

Here’s what Aldrin says when he’s asked: How did it really feel to be on the Moon?

[reading] And he bristles. Quote: For Christ sake, I don’t know! I just don’t know! I have been frustrated since the day I left the Moon by that question.

K: Yeah. That’s amazing.

J: The fourth reason is the video of the light standard crashing… now – The One small step for a man. Now, that’s been alleged to have been a joke. But, if it was, it was extremely well done and very expensive.

My opinion? My opinion is that it was real, but that was during the filming. And I base that on little details like the ladder, like the shadows. Everything about that tape is real. I think that that was a real out-take of One small step for a man.

Number five: The Gs required to orbit and de-orbit. As you know, the lunar lander had no couches, had no seats, had no chairs. They stood up. They stood up and they had an armrest under here and one under here. [indicates under arms].

All they had was a little belt that came out from the side and wrapped around them. Now, that’s not even good for a seatbelt. They’re called “pilot restraints.” That’s all they had. And you’re telling me they came out of orbit at 50,000 feet and landed, and then blasted off, with an armrest? No. No, I don’t think that happened.

And the other is the different ladder. In any picture of One small step for a man and photos of the Apollo 11 taken AFTER that show a much thinner ladder – one made of tubular, looks like aluminum – compared to the one in One small step that is at least that thick [indicates about 3 inches] and it’s an L-shape.

So that’s my take. Apollo 11… I don’t think landed. The others, maybe, but I’m not sure. If they did, if ANY of them landed, it was with technology that used anti-gravity.

B: That’s… that’s what we were told. We were told that they had help. Otherwise they would not have been able to land.

J: That was the only way they could’ve done it.

B: And they wouldn’t have been able to get through the Van Allen Belts. Do you have any view about that?

J: I believe that to be true. The only reason I hesitate is because Bob Lazar told me that there was nothing dangerous about the Van Allen Belt. But what you say about the Van Allen Belt, “Sleeper” is adamant about. He said nobody can get through that. He said that’s a protective layer around the Earth so that we CAN’T get out. The only way that we COULD get out was with help.

K: Right. That’s what we’ve heard.

B: We were told that, too, from the inside. The same thing.

J: And that’s what Sleeper is very adamant about.

B: Very interesting. Okay. Now, I have to ask you about the standard rebuttal to the atmosphere issue, which is that when you are looking at the Moon through a telescope and you see a star, it doesn’t twinkle. It’s just crystal clear. It’s like it’s always there and then [snaps fingers] it suddenly disappears.

J: People who say that haven’t done that. First of all, if you read V.A. Firsoff’s book called The Strange World of the Moon, you will see that there are many instances of occultation. But the fact is, occultation can only occur… is if there is some sort of dust or kind of sediment in the atmosphere.

Here on Earth, there’s all kinds of problems up there. On the Moon, it’s clear, perfectly beautiful. You know, depending on the thickness, you may not see occultation. But, if you want to read The Strange World of the Moon by V.A. Firsoff, he lists at least 14 or 15 astronomers that have seen occultation.

B: Okay. I want to check my understanding of the issue of the center of gravity of the Moon being offset from the center of the Moon. Have I understood that right?

J: Correct. It’s 57 kilometers further away from Earth than is normally thought. And of course that’s confirmed by Apollo, too.

B: That doesn’t sound like it’s enough to make any difference to anything. That’s a very small amount… relative to the size of the Moon, at least.

J: Well, of course, we don’t know what the Moon’s made of. We don’t know how much, you know… how much actual weight that would be. But the fact is that the Moon does this… What do they call it? Where it spins at the top?

Yeah… What’s it called? [reading] Libration. Another Spaceship Moon mystery is its libration. And libration is the Spaceship Moon’s wobble. And this wobble is theorized by mainstream science to be caused by tidal lock. Tidal lock is a nonsensical theory to account for unknown forces, like “gravitons” to account for gravity.

Maybe the Spaceship Moon’s libration or wobble is caused by the rotation of the Moon about the location of the gravity B-wave generator, which is located further away from the Earth, from the center of the Spaceship Moon’s geocentric center. It’s curious to note that one cycle of libration is equal to one period of rotation of the Spaceship Moon.

B: Are you saying, therefore, that this is one of the causes for the gravity on the far side of the Moon, if you’re on the surface, to be greater than it is on this side? And so the atmosphere is on the other side of the Moon?

J: Peter Andreas Hansen felt that it was on the other side. But the fact is, if there was more gravity further, it would depend on the altitude whether the air was denser on the far side or the near side. What we don’t know for sure is the altitude, the mean altitude. If we knew that, we would be able to tell where the denser atmosphere is. But, in any case, the denser atmosphere is going to go to the lower portion.

B: Okay.

J: This is a picture of the Moon. And this was taken by Lick Observatory. And in any picture of the Moon you see – any picture from way back when, up until now – there’s a very bright spot up here which is called “Aristarchus.” If you ask NASA, or anything about it, they just say: It’s incredibly white. We don’t know what’s there or why it’s like that.

But, in fact, last summer we had an astronomer over in England take a picture and this shows it.
We found a – what we assume is a fission reactor – 29 miles in diameter. You can see the dome, there. [holds up photo of Moon showing reactor.]

K: Yeah. This is great stuff!

J: You can see the support sections there. And you can see the glow blue… the blue glow of radiation while the reactor is going.

K: Absolutely. So this is a nuclear reactor on the Moon. It’s visible on this side of the Moon, right?

J: Correct. And we’ve always been told it’s just… It’s whited out on any photo you see. They just take White-Out and they put it there. And, in fact, it’s a beautiful…

K: So this is really incredible! Did you talk to Hoagland about that?

J: I can’t remember whether I did. But I know he wouldn’t admit it. [holds up photo] This is the Clementine photo. You see how it’s been airbrushed? All it is, is just, you know, lines there.

B: We wondered whether you had any insights, intuitions, or anything else, about what happened to Steve Fossett.

J: I flew for Barron Hilton for three years, both his Hawker 125 and his Lear Jet. And many, many times went to the Flying “M” Ranch. And, so, I’m very familiar with that, very familiar with Barron. And, the fact is that the Navy Undersea Warfare Center is only 16 miles to the east.

It is just coincidence that it was only two days after I posted all this stuff on the internet about the sub, the Naval Undersea Warfare Center, and the battleship, and Hawthorne’s tie-in with the underground submarine base, that Steve Fossett disappeared. So what I theorize is, that he took off and was just flying down there, saw an interesting place, flew around, and the Navy commander looked up and said: I’ll betcha that’s John Lear. Shoot that son-of-a-bitch down.

K: [laughs]

J: So they shot him down. And they went over there… and they looked and found out it was Steve Fossett. And the admiral said: We made a mistake. I don’t want anybody ever to know about this. Get rid of the airplane and the body.

K: Crazy! That’s very crazy.

J: But, you know… I say that semi-tongue-in-cheek. There’s no reason for Steve Fossett to have disappeared like that. It’s just UNBELIEVABLE, considering the amount of money, the amount of airplane, the amount of time, that went into that search. How could he POSSIBLY disappear? You know?

The problems I have with… You know, when he first disappeared, we heard that he was looking for a straight-away for his car. Well, you know, it’s pretty obvious. You can look on a map. You need 7 miles. And there’s not many dry lakes that are 7 miles long. And all dry lakes are on a map. So he wouldn’t need to fly around to find some accidentally-undiscovered lake bed. I mean, it’s ridiculous!

K: Well, plus he’s not going to fly between the mountains for that, right?

J: No. And then, you know, we heard that he took his watch which had the automatic emergency signal. And then it turned out no, he didn’t have his watch. But, I will say this, the stories that he was shot down over restricted areas like Groom Lake or Tonopah Test Range are just ridiculous. That’s just not the way it happens.

K: I think he was recruited and sent to Mars or something, or the Moon.

J: Pardon?

K: I said think he was recruited… maybe forcibly, to work, you know, on Mars or the Moon.

J: He very well could have been. There’s some people that have disappeared I have some questions about. And the number one guy is Bob Nathan. Now, Bob Nathan was head of JPL’s Viking imaging. VERY well known… always accessible to the public.

Bob Lazar and I went down to see him PERSONALLY to ask him a question about Mars. We got badges. We were admitted personally. He told us everything he knew. You know, he was easily accessible. Now, you Google him on the… you Google him, and there’s no record of the guy!

K: Wow!

J: It’s like you go to Wikipedia and look for John Lear… He does not exist. And if you look into the records on Wikipedia, the only thing that’s said: No substantiation for anything he claimed. And that’s it on Wikipedia. Now, you can find Bob Lazar, Bill Lear, you know, the Man on the Moon, Howard Menger, everybody else, but you can’t find John Lear on Wikipedia.

K: So Bob Nathan has disappeared, as far as you know?

J: As far as Google. Yeah, I can’t find him. And, the reason I looked for him was because I was telling the story of when Bob and I went down to JPL. The reason we went down there is, Bob just got out of S-4. At S-4 he was shown a picture of what they call “Cydonia.” And there’s pyramids there and “the Face” on Mars. He was shown very clear pictures. And on the pyramids there was no doubt he could see doors, windows, handles, door handles, everything.

K: Wow!

J: I mean, it was a place where somebody lived. So, our question was to Bob Nathan: Were there any other pictures taken, other than the two that Hoagland and DiPietro put in their book?

And he said: No, not that we know of.

And so then we said: Well, you know, these pictures were taken at a very low altitude. Was Viking ever taken lower than the pictures that Hoagland and DiPietro have?

And Nathan said: Yes, but we didn’t take any pictures from that lower altitude.

K: [laughs] Right.

J: So what that tells us is how compartmentalization works again. Bob Nathan knew one part of his program, but Bob Nathan is not the head of the program, you know. He just is the front man for the certain things that he does, you know. It’s the guys down in Australia… you know, Canberra, that get the original signals that tell, you know, exactly what’s going on.

K: Right.

J: We had a girl named Kathy Thomas that worked at Goldstone. And she used to tell us some funny stories, Bob and me. Because, she would get the signals from Australia, and she’d say: We’d be sitting there waiting for Mars signals, and it would be 24 hours and they’d say… they’d send a message down and say: “Well, you guys done airbrushing those pictures? We need them.”
You know?

K: [laughs]

J: So anyway, she invited me and Bob down to Goldstone and we got the royal tour. I mean, we got up in the antenna and all the different places there. It was really great! Unfortunately, she got canned about two weeks after that, and she went to work for Raytheon, up at the test site. And I haven’t heard a word from her since.

K: Oh, wow.

J: Now, Bob says he’s heard from her.

K: Oh yeah?

J: But once you go to work there, you don’t talk to anybody. For instance, if you go to work for Space Command in Colorado Springs, when you get hired you’re told to say goodbye to ALL your friends, because you’re going to have a whole new set of friends. And they don’t want you to accidentally, you know, meet an old friend and say: Hey, you know, you’ll never guess what I’m doing now!

They’re serious. They say: Say goodbye to your old buddies because you are NOT going to see them again. And that’s how they avoid those little mix-ups like that.

K: Wow. Incredible stuff.

B: Are you saying that Bob Lazar was shown detailed pictures of Cydonia at S-4 when he was working there?

J: Yeah, yeah, he was shown the pictures of the pyramids and the…

K: Do you know WHY he was shown those pictures?

J: Part of his briefing. They told him, you know: These are the bases we had on the Moon, the base we had on Mars.

B: What does he remember about what he was told about the Mars base? You know, its function, and how big it is, and who else is there?

J: Nothing. I’ve told you everything he told me. And all that was, that he was shown the picture. We went down to ask Nathan about it and that’s all he was told. When you decide what you’re going to pursue, that’s all they tell you about. And his pursuit and his job he wanted to do… back-engineer the propulsion. They don’t brief you into anything else.

Another interesting thing I wanted to talk to Dan Burisch about… You know, what sold me on Dan Burisch was the DETAIL of the formalities. You know, when you get out of the airplane, what are they doing? Dan Burisch… I watched that video tape. You know, he spent an hour telling EXACTLY what they do! It was so detailed! I don’t see how anybody couldn’t believe that stuff.

K: Right.

J: I mean… you just couldn’t make that stuff up about being escorted here, and the changing of the guard and all that stuff. But, one of the things he said… he was weighed, you know. They’re weighed in and out very carefully, you know. And what I want to tell him is, the reason that just came up a couple of years ago is because that started with Bob Lazar. [laughs]

Because on one of his trips up there, he took that little 110 camera that was just about that big [indicates small size]. And they didn’t search them in those days. And he walked right into S-4 with it. And he had a chair, and he leaned back like that, and he put it up into the leg. And, then he was going to take a picture and bring it out. But he had his problem before he got it out. So after he left, somebody found that camera! And that’s when all the weighing started! [laughing]

K: [laughing] That’s a great story!

Okay, John, now one last question. You flew for years and years and years, right? As a major airline pilot. OK? So you were up there quite a bit. Did you ever see a UFO when you were flying?

J: You know, as I explain to people, when you’re flying, you’re not looking for UFOs. You’re looking at the instruments and seeing where you’re going OR, in my case, sleeping. And then at night, you know, when it’s easier to see UFOs, you’re not looking outside. First of all, you’ve got a brightly lit instrument panel here and it’s reflecting on the window, and there are all kinds of reflections around. You’re paying attention to what’s going on, or, like me, sleeping.

And so, it’s very difficult. You wouldn’t notice. You wouldn’t have the CHANCE to notice a UFO. You would have to put your face up to the window and cup your hands, you know, and who’s going to do that? You know?

K: Right.

J: But yes, there’s twice I saw UFOs.

K: [laughs]

J: Once was in 1966, on descent into Los Angeles, in a Lear Jet, over Palm Springs on that LONG descent through Panning Pass. And I was descending and I saw a white object going left to right across the front of me. And it looked exactly like an M2-F2 – and that’s the “flying bathtub” that, you know, the Seven Million Dollar Man crashed in.

Remember that series? It didn’t have any engines. It had a little engine, but that was for landing. It just looked like a flying bathtub.

K: You mean the Six Million Dollar Man, right?

J: Yeah. And so when I landed I even took the time to call the chief pilot of Lear Jet, Hank Beard, and I said: Hey! You’re never going to believe what I saw! The M2-F2 passed me today, you know, going into Palm Springs. Only years later did I realize how ridiculous that was! [Kerry laughs] That an M2-F2 would be flying across the main approach path to Los Angeles International Airport, you know. They only flew that thing way out in the desert. So, you know, obviously that was something else.

K: So twice… so that’s one.

J: And then in a Lockheed L1011, here just before I retired, with Kittyhawk International, going westbound over the Midwest. No, it was just like, south of Chicago. I was looking south… and of course the guys I flew with… you know, no one was interested in UFOs. They didn’t want to know about it. They didn’t want me to point out any UFOs. I didn’t even bother looking. Besides, I’m usually asleep anyway. But it just happened that I was woken up here this time.

And it was very, very dark and very quiet. And I saw this thing come like this and go [makes explosive sound and indicates upward direction]…just way, way out into outer space. And I said: Wow! That was really something! And then I saw another one. BAM, out the other way! I said: Boy, that’s really something! You know, I ought to tell these guys, but as soon as I do there’s not going to be another one. And I’m going to look like an idiot.

So, then, here comes the third one… BOOM! Like that!

And I said: Well, I’m going to try it. And I said: Hey guys, I want you to look at something over here.

And we were looking over there and a fifth one came, and it went BOOM, like that! And both of them sat down and said: Boy, I never saw anything like that! So that was the second time. And it was really great because they both got to see it. There was no denying it.

K: That’s amazing. Wow!

J: I mean, they were both in a state of shock.

K: That’s fabulous!

J: And, you know, it was definitely a UFO. It was too small to see what…

K: So, what year was that, do you remember?

J: It would have been in ’98… ’97 or ’98.

K: Oh, not that long ago.

J: So I’m sure that must have been our stuff.


Okay. So people say: Okay, John, there’s flying saucers and Reptilians and secret bases and secret satellites. And we did our own 911 – we bombed ourselves. And there’s wars and you say there’s nuke wars coming. You know, what are we supposed to do with all this? I mean, what’s the point of all this?

The point of all this is to try and advance in your… in your life. And the way that you can do that is to try and live your life without envy, hate or greed. Also, to spend as much time with your family and tell them how much you love them. That’s really all we can do.

We can’t be responsible for the bad guys. We can’t be responsible for the children that are having so much trouble in the world. We can’t be responsible for the nuclear wars if they are going on. All we can do is be responsible for ourselves. And that’s to live our lives without envy, hate or greed, and to tell each member of our family how much we love them, and to tell them that every day.

J: I TRY living without envy, hate and greed. But there are sure a lot of assholes out there so…

K: That’s great! I think we’ll make that our ending.

[laughter] [theme music comes up]

Lunch Break

J: What are you worried about?

K: We’re worried about losing…

B: We’re just worried about losing good stuff when we’re not on camera.

J: [laughing] because I’m not wired up.

B: Because, if you’re not wired up to the mike, it’s lost forever. Then we think we’ve got it, but it was actually over lunch. We have to control the environment here. That’s why…

J: That’s exactly right.

B: And it’s so easy to forget. It’s like, s**t, this is like something you told us over a coffee break!

Conversation Over Lunch


J: He says: You blew her off a couple of years ago at your front door. She came to talk to you and you told her to, you know, take a hike. I said: Unbelievable!

K: [laughs]

So, anyway, I called up Angela and it just happened that a couple of weeks later she was running a full week course.

The reason I wanted to take remote-viewing was because I’m not the least bit psychic. I don’t know when my wife’s mad. [Kerry and Bill laugh] I don’t know when the doorbell’s going to ring. I don’t know when the telephone’s going to ring. And I wanted to find out if I could remote-view.

And the answer was POSITIVELY ABSOLUTELY! I was shocked at the stuff I could do.

K: Wonderful.

J: And one of the things we did is, each day one guy got to send the others, to “task” the others. And I tasked them Venus. And I did no front-loading, you know, which means I’m giving advance information.

K: I’ve taken remote-viewing.

J: I said nothing. And at the end I had to laugh ’cause everyone, you know, when they cooled down, said: Wow! What a place! I’d love to go THERE! You know, because it’s beautiful there.

K: OH, that’s great.

J: And it was really satisfying to do that.

K: Cool. Yeah. Well see, there you go.

J: What happens… In the late 50’s we had a couple of Navy people who used a balloon, checking out the atmosphere of Venus. And they said there’s probably an atmosphere, and, you know, for all intents and purposes, probably life there. So, for whatever reason, we had to put a stop to that.

And, I theorize that they got some general around a table like this with his aids and he was telling them: So here’s the plan: [Kerry laughs] We got to be sure that nobody believes there’s life on Venus, so I need you guys to give me some ideas now. Let’s think this through.

And so, one guy say: How about an atmosphere of sulfuric acid?

The guy says: Good, good, I like that… atmosphere of sulfuric acid! Now, come on guys, let’s think outside the box here. What else?

Well, how about volcanoes, exploding volcanoes? Better yet, we’ll make a volcano every square mile on Venus, with lots of lava flowing around.

Okay, come on, let’s get some more ideas here. How about 90 bars of pressure?

That’s good, good! 90 bars of pressure! Nobody could live with 90 bars of pressure, 90 times the pressure on Earth. He says: I think we got a good, good program here.

And so one of the captains says: You know, General, I don’t think anybody’s going to believe this bullshit. I mean, how could that all happen to a planet, you know, so close to us? I mean, why would there be sulfuric acid and exploding volcanoes, you know, and 90 bars of pressure?

And he says: Don’t you worry about that, son. If we say it loud enough and long enough, they’ll believe it!

And so that’s how the new planet Venus was born!

K: Incredible. Well, I mean, that’s actually a believable scenario, what you just laid out.

J: Well, both Adamski and Menger… I think they both either saw it or went there.

K: There’s also supposed to be some case of a human-looking alien visitor in the White House?

B: This is Valiant Thor. This is theStranger at the Pentagon.

J: Val Thor? Val Thor. Yes.

B: Yeah, Val Thor. That was told by Frank Stranges who wrote this book called Stranger at the Pentagon. And if I remember right – I haven’t read the book – if I remember right, Val Thor was supposedly from Venus. And that was before they decided to cancel the Venus story.

K: Right.

B: What do you know about that?

J: Only that his – Val’s ship – was supposed to be parked right out here at Lake Mead. And I have the co-ordinates right here. You can go right up there and see where it was. But that’s all I know about Val Thor.

B: One of the people who we met after we interviewed you was Bob Dean, who you must know quite well. Wonderful man. And he told us that the aliens who the authorities were most worried by were the ones who are indistinguishable from ourselves.

K: Right.

B: And who were walking the corridors of the Pentagon, and in government, and in the military and, you know… Walking down the street, you’d never know the difference. Have you heard anything about that?

K: Have you heard that?

J: There are aliens like that. But the problem is, we allied ourselves with the wrong aliens. We think that the Grays are our enemy. And that’s why we built those twelve… or at least twelve… weapons-based platforms for the direct energy weapons that circle the globe now. And we started in 1968, before Apollo ever went, and we’ve been building it ever since.

K: Hmm.

J: And what they intend to do – and when I say “they” I’m talking about the Nasty-NASA-Nazis – is, if they can’t get rid of the Grays, they’re going to blow up Earth. Because they don’t want the Grays to have what they consider the prize. They don’t understand that there’s BILLIONS of Earths. There’s billions of Earths, just identical to us, all in various stages of development, you know? And they think they’re going to destroy Earth. And they’re not.

Now, in support of that story, one of the first things Bob told me that night was, he saw a message that we sent to the owners of the Grays. And it was: Either you help us get rid of the Grays, or nobody’s going to have Earth.

And that’s when Bob told me about this super-weapon that we have, that could destroy a continent half the size of South America. And since then, I’ve heard, you know, really knowledgeable guys say: Yeah. We have some really frightening weapons. And I’m not sure how it’s going to turn out.

So the plan is, the guys who run all of this stuff are going to destroy… The plan is to destroy us if they can’t get rid of the Grays. And of course they’re not going to get rid of the Grays. The Grays are ALL OVER the friggin’ place!

K: Right.

J: I can’t say they’re beneficial. They have a job to do and that’s to take care of the “containers.” Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s evil. But that’s their job. And there’s nobody who’s going to interfere with that. So they will almost certainly protect us from any kind of disaster that’s going to come along. But meanwhile the Nasty-NASA-…

K: Okay, but what about the Reptilians?

J: They’re a separate deal, I’m sure. They have their own civilization. They’re probably underground.

K: Well, I mean, you certainly know that there’s more than one kind of Gray, right?

J: Yeah. There’s plenty of them and there’s plenty different types of Reptilians. And Ron Schmidt and I are talking with a guy, really a knowledgeable scientist, you know, a guy that would sit down and be comfortable about talking about anything. And he told us his first encounter with a Reptilian. And it was so believable. He was working across the lab. And he just looks over at this guy and asks him a question. And he says the second eyelid went down for a second, you know! [laughs].

K: [laughs]

B: [We’ve been] contacted by somebody who’s a scientist, who actually is a nephew of one of the ex-CIA Directors. He’s a solid, very smart guy. And he went in just for a couple of days at one point to do a particular technical job in Dulce. This is how this whole conversation started. And as part of his briefing for going to Dulce, he was told about what he should do if he should encounter a Reptilian. This was part of the briefing, very matter-of-fact.

And, what he was told is, if you encounter one of these guys, you drop your hands with your palms open to show that it’s a gesture of supplication. It shows that you’re not a threat. But you don’t do that… you do that. And he said that that’s what you do with these guys. And then they’ll leave you alone.

And he did encounter one of these. He encountered one Reptilian in silent communication with one Gray – and just on one occasion, just for a few moments. And he did what he was told, you know. And he said that this large creature was awesome and arrogant and cold, and looked like he could just, you know, kill you with a single blow.

J: Uh huh.

B: And you know, just back away… back away slowly. And everyone was cool. Everything was cool. And he told us this in a very matter-of-fact way. Does that match what you’ve heard?

J: Absolutely. 100%… It sounds like many stories that I’ve heard…

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